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Reducing shotgun spam

Discussion in 'Balance' started by FuzzyBlueBaron, Jan 27, 2015.

  1. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    2,508
    @AsuMagic - This bit first:
    Thing is, Asu, I can't actually see much in your second list that doesn't (one way or another) fall under the category of "support builders and knights" (which is something you've failed to define anyway--i.e. you need to tell us the exact things archers do when they are "supporting"); so I'm a little unsure what you're complaining about. :huh?:
    As I said above, you've not defined what "support" entails, so this sentence is useless. Additionally, you're stating your opinion (which is fine; people are allowed to have opinions) as fact without any kind of reasoning to back it up (not fine; without supporting facts/reasoning opinions are just one person's point of view).
    Imagine a world where an archer cannot ever hurt a shielding knight. Well done. You've invented a world full of un-fun where archers have even more reason to be campy fuckers. GG. :huh?:
    So, basically, you're upset that a skilled archer--who has to flirt with instant death by daring to get that close--can manage to force you to waste a precious bomb (which, as we all know, are very expensive and hard to obtain) to obliterate him so you can go on and kill/pillage/coin-and-flag get/etc. while he has to spend the next 15sec respawning? Wait, how is this bad again?

    Seriously, when playing against a skilled opponent (knight, archer, builder) it often becomes mandatory to bring along a few... surprises... to help level the field. And in this case, your bomb is a hard counter against the archer (bc, srsly, if they're in cqc with you, then there's little chance they're going to be able to escape unless you're asleep!), whereas the archer doesn't really get a hard counter against you, the knight. Basically, it seems you dislike the fact that a skilled opponent forces you to change your play-style; which is silly, imo--being able to play the same way against everyone is a recipe for making things boooooooring. :rollseyes:
    Stop and thing about how this would play out. I know, I know. You really dislike cqc. But just stop and think through how this would work:
    1. Shotgun is nerfed at close distance.
    2. Archers now have zero reason to get closer to the enemy.
    3. Shotgun is 'modified' (i.e.: 'buffed') to keep it useful at a distance.
    4. Archers now have extra reason to stay as far away from the enemy as possible.
    5. ???
    6. Profit (i.e.: Archers now have every reason to be utterly campy fucks, with literally no incentive given them for not hiding for whole games behind bridges [and, actually, some incentive not to stop camping, bc close-range is now nerfed]).
    Can you not see how thing would just be a recipe for bland gameplay and more stalemates?
     
    DatNobby, hierbo and Blue_Tiger like this.
  2. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    2,508
    Agreed. People do tend to split it along those lines.

    I guess this is where I was thinking that nerfing the distance of shotgun arrows (to, say, 10-12 tiles; thereby making shotgun definitely a short-range attack) would lead to a clear split whereby archers can do an either/or approach:

    either:

    Snipe from a distance without (really) endangering themselves--lends itself to a 'detached, long-range support' model* that focuses on delivery of fire/water/bomb arrows, as well as a kind of "anti-support" role of picking off enemy builders and archers.​

    or:

    Get closer/more personal and pepper/shotgun enemies while having to take extra care to avoid (generally, instantly fatal) damage--lends itself to a 'aggressive, cqc support' model* that focuses on dps, close harrying/pressuring of enemy front-liners, and invasive havoc creation via infiltration of the enemy's base (read: being a shitter :rekt:).
    I really believe that allowing both playstyles to flourish (and not only "allow", but actually reinforcing them as distinct modes of play through the clarification of shotgun as clearly a cqc tool--not a spam-barrage generator) is what will give us a more varied (and thus, less boring/predictable) game.


    *NB: I believe there are multiple, differentiated models of "support". Meaning that people who voice the "archers are support" argument, but fail to provide a sufficiently varied definition of "support" are just people who haven't stopped and considered that maybe (shock, horror) there are different ways one can play this class and succeed + enjoy yourself.

    {edit}
    For those about to complain about multiple posts, I figured that having seperate posts was preferable to one monster post. Plus, it's not like it really took up any more room.
     
    Blue_Tiger and SirDangalang like this.
  3. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    I honestly feel like lining up the top and centre triple-shot arrows for an instant kill on an archer is a skill shot that's worth keeping in-game. Long range sniper support archer works ok as-is, farms coins easily and gives team knights an easy fight. cqc archer is a dice roll a fair bit of the time but can work out well, especially if you get the opening triple shot off. Anyone who plays archer enough knows that multiple triple shots in active cqc is very risky as you're slowed for 5 seconds - a rain of half or quarter shots is where it's at if you're actually close. If you want multiple triple shots you have to grapple away each time and start charging outside of active melee. If you're a knight that can't catch archers in that 5 second window of slow I pity you.

    Spam triple shots outside of a cqc role isn't a problem in my eyes - the rate of fire is lower, the arrows go less far, only one of them can be special, and the archer is generally being less useful than they could be with careful single shots and a variety of ammunition.

    tl;dr I'm not sold on the proposed change sorry

    Re: "bring back chain shots" - yeah we all want to go back to hails of full range full damage arrows, sure, sure.
     
    hierbo, Noburu, SirDangalang and 3 others like this.
  4. Potatobird

    Potatobird Bison Rider Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    775
    WARNING: Legolas whining incoming

    Yeah, it's kind of satisfying to land that instakill, but usually (for me) it's done by accident, and it's really frustrating on the other end. It also took some skill to hit two arrows in a row with legolas.
    But usually I think you'd be hiding and you'd only pop out for a second to snap off your shotgun, if you're actually sitting there exposed while you charge your shot and waddle around then yeah you're probably dead, if they actually have counter archers.

    Not necessarily, that's why I said there were other ways the legolas shot could have been changed besides making it into shotgun. Here's a couple off the top of my head:
    • 2nd and 3rd arrows won't stun
    • 2nd and 3rd arrows do less damage
    • 2nd and 3rd arrows have consistently less range / distance or fire at different angles, making them harder to aim
    I think shotgun is too strong, and legolas is less powerful but more fun for everyone involved. That moment when an enemy archer pops up with a legolas: you have to scramble to dodge the arrows consecutively, but will probably get hit by one or two. That moment when an enemy archer pops up with a shotgun: either he whiffs it or you get hit, because the arrows all come at the same time. In melee, shotgun is way stronger as an execution to deal a consistent, penetrating damage burst to any class, that happens instantly instead of archers being left with a decision of either finishing the chain shot or making a safer escape.

    If shotgun was added to reduce arrows raining from the sky, I don't think it worked, because with shotgun the arrow rain is just coming from the side in a faster and less dodgeable manner, which is actually more annoying in my opinion. You can shoot arrow rain over towers with legolas, but if you don't have some sort of platform cover then you should have to deal with arrow rain if archers get in range to do that. That's a pretty classic archer trope that I feel doesn't detract from the game.

    Plus it's just cooler imo :spam:
     
    Anonymuse likes this.
  5. -Crimson-

    -Crimson- Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    108
    I still feel legolas should come back. People complain about it all the time and I don't see why Geti can't just add it in for the sake of the community. (Switch between the two at least, that'll help) :huh?:
    no one likes playing knight and going up to an archer only for him to play one trick pony and use his shotgun as self defence, its scary going up against shotgun archers at close range, and I don't believe that's what they should be about. Archers should be afraid of knights in situations like that, not the other way around.
     
  6. TheDirtySwine

    TheDirtySwine Bison Rider Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    818
    Why can't it come back with a similar decay to the shotgun? It'd also be nice to have it automatically fire like the shotgun does.
     
  7. Verzuvius

    Verzuvius Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    545
    GIT GUD, M8!
     
  8. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    2,508
    Eh, fair enough.

    Just be prepared for extensive swearing the next time I re-enter IRC after a session trying to play through an archer clusterfuck on a flat map. I literally don't think I've seen one end without it being caused by people abandoning the server or a griefer kegging something.
    Ver, please refrain from the antagonism. <3
     
    -Crimson- likes this.
  9. SlayerSean

    SlayerSean FYI: it's pronounced "seen"

    Messages:
    191
    (not sure if thread "dead" for long enough or not don't kill me if it is)

    Just figured I'd say if people really want legolas back it could always be returned, but with *two* arrows instead, and a longer cooldown between shots. Few arrow rain issues if it's only two arrows fired a reasonable time after each other. If the cooldown between the shots from this 'legolas' were just right, it would make it partially useful for CQC but not a pain in the ass from long range. e.g. If close to knight, first shot stuns and second manages to hit (dealing 1 heart dmg) before stun finishes, making it a mildly effective CQC weapon that isn't "too OP" and pisses off every knight. however, if you're far (e.g. outside normal stun range) the arrows will still stun, but they'll come far enough apart that the stun ends before the second arrow hits, so it instead deals "double stun" as opposed to damage if both manage to hit, meaning it's used to assist team-mates in killing (which is what 'sniper' archers should do). Not even sure if such a cooldown time could exist, but if it could that could be an alternate to shotgun if people are so desperate for it (imo you should just get more bombs :wink:)
     
  10. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

    Messages:
    899
    Those two arrow long range insta kills with shotgun shouldn't happen. When I die to it, I get annoyed and when I kill with it, I feel bad. To my knowledge, it is almost 100% luck base since there are way too many variables to calculate for a hit. If anyone actually uses this intentionally then fair enough but I'm doubtful.

    I am completely in favour of shotgun distance being reduced - maybe even have the middle break, too.
     
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  11. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    2,508
    Actually, that's what I was intending with the original idea--have all three arrows break up sooner, making shotgun a definite close to mid-close weapon.
     
    Sky_Captain_Bjorn likes this.
  12. Verzuvius

    Verzuvius Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    545
    Motherfucker, there is no luck. :X3:
     
  13. tru0067

    tru0067 Horde Gibber Tester

    Messages:
    165
    Shotgun double hits at range take skill and usually need to be predetermined. You need to be at a set distance and get the arrows to hit. I don't think this needs to be nerfed as it makes archer v archer fights actually have a way of ending quickly and it allows archers to actually do surprise damage at range. IMO archers should be a ranged class, able to do damage at range and double hit shotgun allows them to do this. I also think that legolas should be brought back because it truly allowed archers to kill at range, especially when firing over towers (which shotgun cannot do). However I think legolas shot should do significant knock back in cqc, significant enough that no matter how close you are you would be pushed back far enough so that the third shot's natural deviation means it doesn't hit (unless you're super lucky or if they're pinned against a wall, which I think would be fair). This would mean that cqc legolas shot would only do 1 heart and would primarily be used to re distance the opponent. I also think that triple special shots should be allowed. It would allow archer to do a lot of havoc, but would cost them a whole lot. It would also provide a means for archers to destroy archer nests in one fell swoop, without the opposition having time to repair or flee. I also think that arrows should not decay so that archers can not only hit things at range, but do good damage at range.

    IMO archer is currently unfairly good in cqc, but the problem lies in getting close to them in the first place because you have to approach with the danger of getting a shield-break 2 hearts damage or a flat 3, once you're "inside" they have to either grapple away, die to a lightning fast slash, or amazingly parkour you and fire uncharged shots to whittle you down.

    Hopefully this idea would balance archer in cqc (which seems to be the biggest problem) while not encouraging camping (can be countered by ranged triple shots and firing ranged legolas shots is silly due to natural variation in arrow trajectories). Hopefully it would promote mid range fighting, well withing bomb or bomb jump range.

    I also think the time archers can 'hold' a triple shot needs to be drastically nerfed, so that the triple shot is significantly less of a danger in general.

    tl;dr bring back legolas
     
  14. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    Re: "legolas" better at range - this has always been a load of tripe. the rate of fire was always lower than single shots, and was affected by RNG spread as well.

    Reducing hold time is possible, though honestly at the moment you're slowed enough to be caught all the time in cqc unless your timing is very solid and your grapple-fu is good, which is where the high skill ceiling of archer comes from. If the speed reduction not existing when holding a shot is still there, that needs to be fixed - honestly I tend not to hold the shot long so I haven't noticed.

    I see a lot of triple shot spam as is trying to cqc - and honestly often failing. The consistently good archers are able to use it well, just like the consistently good knights are able to use all the arms at their disposal to catch and deny them.
     
    FuzzyBlueBaron likes this.
  15. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

    Messages:
    899
    You talk a lot about archer-knight combat balance and I don't see why. Archers and knights aren't meant to engage in direct combat often if at all. In CTF, archers are meant to pester enemy knights and that's about it.

    What the shotgun ruins about the game is archer on archer combat. It takes very little aim to get a shot on another archer with it even at medium-long range and there is no real counter to it when one heart down other than rush and hope.
     
  16. SlayerSean

    SlayerSean FYI: it's pronounced "seen"

    Messages:
    191
    I know why. It's because archer vs knight combat exists and that's highly unlikely to change.

    It still takes a fair bit of aim, and any archer foolish enough to not run when required should die. Not to mention there is a counter to it. Single shots. In the time it takes for the enemy archer to charge that shotgun you could have easily taken them down (speed decrease!).
     
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  17. tru0067

    tru0067 Horde Gibber Tester

    Messages:
    165
    It mightn't have been as good as single shots, but it was a hell of a lot better than the shotgun. The shotgun at range is essentially a single shot (arrows decaying), while legolas allowed you to do good damage in a short space of time. It had good 'burst' damage at range, not good dps (single shot will always win at dps). It allowed you to kill an enemy before they could run away or build a defense. It also allowed you to essentially get at least one guaranteed hit at long range, unlike single shots which a capable opponent can easily dodge. Single shots might have better dps at range, but only on paper, in practice there is the whole problem of actually hitting them which legolas allowed you to do.
     
    Blue_Tiger likes this.
  18. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    3,730
    It didn't though, Mr Rose Tinted Glasses, it had RNG spread that frustrated anyone trying to use it for long range burst damage. It allowed you to let an enemy get away by not shooting them for the entire charge time. It was only truly useful within CQC range with the added bonus of all 3 arrows surviving when being used to spam from towers.

    I talk about it because everyone seems to pretend class-changing to suit the situation isn't a thing, and push for cross-class balance. Ignoring the community's infliction towards that is an ignorant waste of time.
     
  19. Dubovnik

    Dubovnik Drill Rusher
    1. Top Hat Squad [THS]

    Messages:
    82
    In my opinion, shotgun is even more useful that Legolas shot, you can throw 3 arrows, can make arrow ladder much faster, killing out knight with 3 heart....
    Shotgun for archer - its balanced than legolas shot, because when shotgun not existed, only legolas shot archers constantly spam arrows every time they shooting like an archer turret - becoming deadly to threat. Now when shotgun came, archers constantly spam it, but not often as the distance reduced.
     
  20. J-man2003

    J-man2003 Arsonist

    Messages:
    352
    ^^^
    Definition of every admin on the forums.