Archer changes general

They should probably just take out the special arrows and replace them with bra and jockstrap ammo so they can better 'support' their teammates.

 

Frankly people think archers are op because of the arrow spam, and the archer who trinity shot you ever so often, then goes back into the tower.

Archers think they themselves suck and needs buff, because archers rarely kill anyone, sure, you hit things all the time, and knights hate you for it. But as the game you try to kill, and archers just rarely do that. (I've seen archers who do that well, it's just... doesn't happen often). And like Kouji said, archers have the wrong mentality in mind, when they switch to archer, It's not classic, archers are not the fuck over every knight class, it's a support and utility class, you aren't supposed to be getting 30:1 kdr, but you are supposed to harass the other team, and be proud of it.

(Atleast my wall isn't as bad as Kouji's)

 

I get that Archers are support and not killing machines, but we're not rewarded for doing our part.
We earn less gold than Knights, making it hard to reach our highest potential with utility. We can't stand against Knights, nor do we have the room to run a lot of the time. Hell, we can't even bust through a wooden door without spending most of our meager earnings or taking the whole match.

Just about everything an Archer can do well, can be done quicker or cheaper by one of the other classes.

 

Why shouldn't archers be killing machines? It's plainly clear that their current level of utility is not enough.

A good knight can win the entire game solo.
A good builder can stall the entire game solo.
A good archer can be mildly annoying.

I think there's a discrepancy here. That's not to say that if we could come up with sufficient utility for the archer that that wouldn't also be a valid- various changes like archer's big damage to siege and their exclusive rights to fire were my ideas- but we just haven't heard any suggestions that would elevate archer to the level of the other classes. And really, having a slight buff to damage wouldn't even make them killing machines. They'd still have trouble getting around shields and they'd still be incredibly vulnerable to things like bombs. Really the suggestions so far haven't even been crazy buffs meant to raise the archer to th level of the other classes but really just baby steps forward across the huge gulf.

Again: everyone who still thinks the archer is fine, please show me video evidence of the archer having a huge meaningful impact on the game the likes of which you can see knight and builders doing every game.

 

Well then, instead of archer, I see two ways of going.

First, Destruction. Basically turn Archers into block destroyers, and give them money for destroying enemy blocks. (damn that will be hard to code, maybe all blocks past a certain point destroyed by archers give it money? (manmade ofcourse)). This will give them the ability to counter a builder stalling, as well as make the knight wins, so much easier.


Second, Ninja. Basically make it that if played well, they CAN win the whole game solo, make it easier for them to ninja in.



There really is only 2 coins to this, Winning, and defense against winning. Knights are winning, builder are defense against winning.... So we either have to counter builder/knight with archer. or make archer capable of winning lonesome, or capable of defending a structure lonesome.

 

Archers functioning as "block destroyers" is completely negated by the fact they aren't the only ones who can do that. Knights with kegs do far more block destroying than archers with bomb arrows. So.. what we're buffing everyone else more so than archers, or is this supposed to be a reward only for archers? Because I don't see that ending well.

Counting "ninja'ing" as a functionality is silly, as well. A builder (as part of it's job) can completely negate your ability to ninja very easily.

Both require that your enemy team be inexperienced.

Archers can be amazing, the problem is they aren't necessary. A team of 7 knights and a builder can always win, a team of 7 archers and a builder would be painful. One cannot survive without the other- unfortunately the same cannot be said in reverse. There are no present circumstances that a person stops and goes, oh gee I could sure use an archer here...

 

I was reading all your posts, but be fair to yourselfs....

IF you make the archer stronger, and IF the Archer could oneshot a knight, noone would play knights anymore.

This game is Teamplay, and an archersquad can own the server. Oh yes you need Teamspeak and a team for it. But then stop beeing solo and get friends online.

Archer is the most difficult class to play of the 3 classes, and i dont know what you guys want to get.
Highest killcount?

For usual we are running with a knight + 2 archers. Knight engages combat archers shooting down everything.

Because of imbalance whine posts "make something stronger" without putting hearth into something a game will be broken very quick.

Because if you give the archer more damage, they will also kill builders faster.

 

It's funny, because right now, all I want to add to archer is the ability to grapple while shooting, not shooting while grappling, grappling while shooting.

I really don't think it's necessary for more... improvements for archers...

some bomb arrows
and it's gg.

 

Oh gawd... so many people with so many opinions regarding what the archer should be.

If the archer was a real person the poor guy would have an identity crisis right about now.

 

you cant have an identity crisis if you dont have a soul

 

I got a simple fix.

Give them gold for simply hitting a knight. Even if it doesn't do damage. Just hit them. Archers never get enough gold to buy their arrows just by playing archer. They have to go knight, switch to archer, and then buy the arrows.

That fixes the problem in CTF at least.

With WAR, maybe just put out more arrows per workshop.

 

Wow,very well written. @Kouji. But honestly, the ones complaining are the one's who lack the patience to learn the class before judging it. If you're being killed most of the time what's that telling you? Work on it. Instead of asking for buffs half the time. AvK is simply a test of your wits and skill with that class, to be able to win means being able to learn and play the archer class.

 

I play a lot of archer and I've gotten fairly good at it, so I rarely die. Usually I can get at least 6 bomb arrows every life, and around 3-4:1 KD. Buffing archer damage mid range by 0,5 hearts wouldn't make them OP, just give them a bigger impact when they're actually playing well.

What I'd like to see the most is increased stun range, no arrow spread and no arrow slashing. Simply letting archers lit kegs would be nice as well. Scaling enemy towers is actually a difficult task with keg strapped to your back, unless the map has multiple routes of course.

 

I can't speak for the others on my side of the fence on this issue, but I can speak to my own experience. I know it is just one man's viewpoint, but I can say that I am at best 'ok' at this game, and I have not encountered any archers that can kill me with any regularity. I do get sniped by lucky or unforeseen shots from time to time, but for the most part, archers are quite easy pickings and not to be feared. I'm sure an experienced archer like Kouji or some of the other veterans could turn me into a pincushion, but that's hardly a convincing test, as we're at a significant skill level disparity. For a veteran archer to say that he usually has a good K:D is not a particularly valid data point due to that fact that he is better at the game than most everyone, after all.

I'd love to try some experiments to confirm these things. You guys may be right, after all, in that there's just a steep learning curve. If it is so steep, though, the class is not very approachable to players compared to other classes and will go widely unused or under-used, as I think it is fair to say we have seen.

Your points are taken in the sense that a great archer can be reliably victorious, but why is it that it's ok that the archer is the only class that requires you to be great to be effective? Why does a mediocre archer have almost no chance against a mediocre knight?

In my experience, game balance concerns like this are best optimized around more of a curve in performance; as you gradually improve, you get gradually better results. As it appears now, as an archer you must grind your way through a laborious learning curve, during which you are all but useless, until one day, you have an archery epiphany and can be 'balanced'.

I think that my original proposal to make the archer more powerful relative to the knight by way of reducing the knight's health by 1 heart and slash damage by 1/2 heart (the values from earlier builds prior to current mechanics) won't particularly add to the archers ninja flag grabbing strategy, which is obviously already effective, as attacking has little to do with that. It will, though, I hope add a second mode of use in the form of defensive harrier. The flag capturing ability is only of use in CTF mode, after all, so it seems reasonable to give them utility besides that.

 

now i say what nobody tried to say. MOSSTONES (áka bedrock) is WAAY to underpowered. i never ever saw mosstone killing somone intentional

i think kegshops < bombarrowshops because of the possiblity taking down structures from distance and give the archer a easy to use picklock for stealing flags and take over halls. Only killing Knights with bombarrows is shit since an update.
Just fix the grappleshooting

 

Wow what's with you and making arguments personal all the time, @Kouji? My ability to play archer has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. Also, plenty of archers are complaining. Look at Nighthawk and Raelian. Also Monsteri who plays a bit of both. I think you are the only archer player who is ok with the class, and I thought you weren't even playing.

The reason I started wanting buffs for archer is because of the times I've played with Verra and seen that perfect archer movement and accuracy and despaired to see that our witchy witch still wasn't accomplishing much of anything. Archers can do some pretty cheeky stuff but in order to actually kill a half competent knight they need to get in close and that's where they die. Archers have no solid answer to bombs at close range and at long range bomb jumping at archers is effective even if they're good.

I'm talking about the top potential for the class. Yes against scrubs obviously but the point is that even against scrubs archers can't do much of anything. The way this game is played 99% of the team is on public servers full of scrubs. This is the same between skilled players.

It's potential of what? Archers just don't physicall output enough damage to have a big affect on the game. Sometimes I just let archers hit me because they do such little damage and it slows me down less than shielding.

You obviously ignored my reply. I told him I had my own video footage of flag capping as archer and I asked him how many enemies were in his way when he did it. He replied that there wren't really many enemies in his way. Sure an archer is good at capping flags is the enemy leaves them unprotected and is minecrafting at behind their tent, but at that point a smarter than average chicken could too. A good knight could have capped all the flags even in spite of droves of enemies.

Show me video footage of you beating JTG in AvK 50% of the time lol.