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Archer changes general

Discussion in 'Balance' started by Landoo2, Oct 31, 2013.

?

should there be arrows that do more damage then just 1 heart?

  1. yes, but they should cost much

    15 vote(s)
    15.0%
  2. yes, because 4 arrows are too much to kill a knight

    38 vote(s)
    38.0%
  3. no, because archers are already overpowered

    28 vote(s)
    28.0%
  4. no, because ..... (post your reason in the thred pls)

    19 vote(s)
    19.0%
  1. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    Maybe Fire arrows could be buffed to deal more damage to players, since builders are starting to get smart at stoning the outside. Fire arrows should do continuous damage until the player makes an effort to put out the fire by jumping into water, water bomb/arrow/bucket, or by teabagging rapidly (stop drop and roll). If they're fast enough at teabagging, they should be able to reduce it to 1.5 hearts, but if they are in the heat (pun intended) of battle, they won't notice the fire as quickly and maybe burn to death.
     
  2. Kouji

    Kouji Cold, Uncaring, Sadistic, Evil and Cruel Meanie Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. MOLEing Over Large Estates - [MOLE]
    2. REKINS OF SEAS: Super Crew of Ultimate Havoking 2: Return of King of KAG: Chapter 420blazeit - REKIN

    Messages:
    2,910
    I still don't get why people want to buff arrow damage against other knights. YOU DON'T NEED IT. If you just want to kill stuff and just overall be offensive, then play knight. Go stab stuff all day, and have fun with your casual scrub class. If you just want to only provide strong defensive support to your team (with a bit of passive offensive support in the form of buying stuff and keeping ground) then play builder and minecraft all day. An archer should not be trying to fulfill any the niche of a knight in attempting to just straight out murder things.
    There are a shit ton of things archer can do better than knight (and these could be expanded on to be even better if people seriously thought about it) and if you are complaining that you should be doing more damage as an archer, STOP PLAYING ARCHER.
    You aren't going to make a viably balanced ranged class in a 2D game because dodging is only available by moving up, down or just completely negating the damage. This is why all 2d games are either have every class be Long Range (with just different attack spreads and stats) or there is no long range. If this were 3d, then sure it'd be fine, since aiming would take way more skill in that case, but it's not.
    Things an archer can do that everyone has seemed to overlook:

    - Take down Siege. Either you use your own siege weapons to down siege, or you get an archer. Of course you could just try bomb jumping in, but unlike an archer, you'll probably get killed by the time you take over the siege weapon and they'll be firing back in no time.

    - Instead of buffing arrow damage against units, I'd rather see normal arrows do more damage against siege. It currently takes 50+ or so regular arrows to take down siege (or just a couple of bomb few bomb arrows). I'd be fine if archers either got coins from hitting siege with arrows or damage they did was increased against it.

    - Additionally, most people don't seem to notice, but if you hit siege with an arrow, it will get pushed backed. This always ends up forcing the person firing it to have to get off, and readjust again, which can quickly then be pushed back again. You can even push it off the tower and have it fall upside down or something. This forces the team to repack it and reset it (if it's a catapult) or just have a bad spawn now (if it's a ballista).
    - Get people past defenses. Archers take down any quick repairs with a single fire arrow or help everyone get past defenses with bomb arrows. Bomb arrows don't really care about stone doors. Of course you could do it with a keg as a knight, but that involves you having to survive long enough to get the keg back up there and make it back in time to keep the builder from repairing the explosion (because you are likely dead after throwing that keg). Unless your entire team is coordinated beyond belief, knights alone aren't going to get pass defenses all that easily. Sure knights can just fly over defenses as well, but unless the other team is really bad, you are dead there anyways. Archers on the other hand can destroy defenses from a safe range and still take out builders attempting to undo their work, but people don't seem to be able to think about that. Also bombs are terribly weak at getting past stone doors, so don't even bother mentioning them.

    - Ninja caps. Grapple speed allows archers to be better flag carriers and their maneuverability allows them to get into places that other classes have a hard time doing by themselves. This also leads me to the next useful thing an archer can do:

    - Harassment. People can't seem to manage how to utilize the abilities of an archer to harass stuff successfully. It's not that hard.

    - Force a knight to shield by just simply charging an arrow. This gives a friendly knight a clean and perfect opportunity to double slash, and gain momentum. Then you can simply finish them off, or continue supporting your knight friendly by stunning enemy knight that is closing in on them.

    - Get half the team distracted trying to get you just because you are in their defenses. People are simply stupid and will try to kill an archer just because it's in their territory, mainly because archers screams "FREE KILL" if it's by itself. If you are any good at dodging however, this is not the case and you can keep like 3+ knights easily distracted. By simply distracting a large part of the team, you give your own team a significant numbers advantage that allows them to actually get builders and knights up to defenses and wreck stuff up.
    Just an fyi: I only play archer or builder and most of the time, I'm archer. I've turned around games and broken stalemates by simply playing as archer since team mates are constantly getting stuck once they hit defenses, and I simply undid them. I usually end up having to swap to builder though because others see me doing this and start thinking we simply need more archers.

    Archers in mass are useless however, because their great offensive support is useless if there is no offensive to support. Archers are more reliant on the team being good rather than a single player. Archer + Good team work > Good knights. Basically, if your team is bad, you aren't going to be all that useful since unlike knight who can solo things without team work, an Archer can't. However if your team is good, and you know what you are doing (and not simply spamming Legolas shot all day), you'll find a lot more use from an Archer. /rant

    The only good ideas I've suggestions I've seen is adding more utility to archer. Simply stop trying to make Archer a better killing machine and instead better at getting people past defenses. A builder isn't going to be doing this any time soon unless they get some major survivability and a knight doesn't need any more tools.
     
    Superblackcat and Auburn like this.
  3. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    To paraphrase Kouji: archers are meant for support and utility, and cannot be one-man armies with high K/Ds
    I wonder how many times I have said that on the forums...... and no one has taken me seriously....

    In my opinion, Archers need a bit more utility to make them from a decent support class, to a really good support class. Maybe slightly better fire arrows, as I mentioned a few posts up, after all, fire rarely ever goes out by someone running around and waving their arms. Or, I know I've heard rope arrows mentioned before, they should be expensive, but should be a fast way for everyone else to get up the enemies' towers, but should be broken in a single hit by the enemy. OR, heart arrows to heal your friends (as I have mentioned before).

    Also, directed at the general public: If you're complaining about how bad the archer class is, get better at them, because I have been killed by many an archer while distracted by their fellow knights. And if you're complaining about archers being OP, get better at knight.
     
    Superblackcat likes this.
  4. hierbo

    hierbo Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    190
    They should probably just take out the special arrows and replace them with bra and jockstrap ammo so they can better 'support' their teammates.
     
    Nabuco and Arcrave like this.
  5. Superblackcat

    Superblackcat baideist baide Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    462
    Frankly people think archers are op because of the arrow spam, and the archer who trinity shot you ever so often, then goes back into the tower.

    Archers think they themselves suck and needs buff, because archers rarely kill anyone, sure, you hit things all the time, and knights hate you for it. But as the game you try to kill, and archers just rarely do that. (I've seen archers who do that well, it's just... doesn't happen often). And like Kouji said, archers have the wrong mentality in mind, when they switch to archer, It's not classic, archers are not the fuck over every knight class, it's a support and utility class, you aren't supposed to be getting 30:1 kdr, but you are supposed to harass the other team, and be proud of it.

    (Atleast my wall isn't as bad as Kouji's)
     
  6. Aeynia

    Aeynia Obligatory Mute Girl Donator

    Messages:
    56
    I get that Archers are support and not killing machines, but we're not rewarded for doing our part.
    We earn less gold than Knights, making it hard to reach our highest potential with utility. We can't stand against Knights, nor do we have the room to run a lot of the time. Hell, we can't even bust through a wooden door without spending most of our meager earnings or taking the whole match.

    Just about everything an Archer can do well, can be done quicker or cheaper by one of the other classes.
     
    hierbo and Klokinator like this.
  7. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

    Messages:
    2,196
    Why shouldn't archers be killing machines? It's plainly clear that their current level of utility is not enough.

    A good knight can win the entire game solo.
    A good builder can stall the entire game solo.
    A good archer can be mildly annoying.

    I think there's a discrepancy here. That's not to say that if we could come up with sufficient utility for the archer that that wouldn't also be a valid- various changes like archer's big damage to siege and their exclusive rights to fire were my ideas- but we just haven't heard any suggestions that would elevate archer to the level of the other classes. And really, having a slight buff to damage wouldn't even make them killing machines. They'd still have trouble getting around shields and they'd still be incredibly vulnerable to things like bombs. Really the suggestions so far haven't even been crazy buffs meant to raise the archer to th level of the other classes but really just baby steps forward across the huge gulf.

    Again: everyone who still thinks the archer is fine, please show me video evidence of the archer having a huge meaningful impact on the game the likes of which you can see knight and builders doing every game.
     
  8. Superblackcat

    Superblackcat baideist baide Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    462
    Well then, instead of archer, I see two ways of going.

    First, Destruction. Basically turn Archers into block destroyers, and give them money for destroying enemy blocks. (damn that will be hard to code, maybe all blocks past a certain point destroyed by archers give it money? (manmade ofcourse)). This will give them the ability to counter a builder stalling, as well as make the knight wins, so much easier.


    Second, Ninja. Basically make it that if played well, they CAN win the whole game solo, make it easier for them to ninja in.



    There really is only 2 coins to this, Winning, and defense against winning. Knights are winning, builder are defense against winning.... So we either have to counter builder/knight with archer. or make archer capable of winning lonesome, or capable of defending a structure lonesome.
     
  9. Scynix

    Scynix Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    9
    Archers functioning as "block destroyers" is completely negated by the fact they aren't the only ones who can do that. Knights with kegs do far more block destroying than archers with bomb arrows. So.. what we're buffing everyone else more so than archers, or is this supposed to be a reward only for archers? Because I don't see that ending well.

    Counting "ninja'ing" as a functionality is silly, as well. A builder (as part of it's job) can completely negate your ability to ninja very easily.

    Both require that your enemy team be inexperienced.

    Archers can be amazing, the problem is they aren't necessary. A team of 7 knights and a builder can always win, a team of 7 archers and a builder would be painful. One cannot survive without the other- unfortunately the same cannot be said in reverse. There are no present circumstances that a person stops and goes, oh gee I could sure use an archer here...
     
  10. WeirdEarb

    WeirdEarb Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    18
    I was reading all your posts, but be fair to yourselfs....

    IF you make the archer stronger, and IF the Archer could oneshot a knight, noone would play knights anymore.

    This game is Teamplay, and an archersquad can own the server. Oh yes you need Teamspeak and a team for it. But then stop beeing solo and get friends online.

    Archer is the most difficult class to play of the 3 classes, and i dont know what you guys want to get.
    Highest killcount?

    For usual we are running with a knight + 2 archers. Knight engages combat archers shooting down everything.

    Because of imbalance whine posts "make something stronger" without putting hearth into something a game will be broken very quick.

    Because if you give the archer more damage, they will also kill builders faster.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  11. Superblackcat

    Superblackcat baideist baide Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    462
    It's funny, because right now, all I want to add to archer is the ability to grapple while shooting, not shooting while grappling, grappling while shooting.

    I really don't think it's necessary for more... improvements for archers...

    some bomb arrows
    and it's gg.
     
  12. Raelian

    Raelian Bison Rider

    Messages:
    232
    Oh gawd... so many people with so many opinions regarding what the archer should be.

    If the archer was a real person the poor guy would have an identity crisis right about now.
     
  13. you cant have an identity crisis if you dont have a soul
     
  14. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    917
    I got a simple fix.

    Give them gold for simply hitting a knight. Even if it doesn't do damage. Just hit them. Archers never get enough gold to buy their arrows just by playing archer. They have to go knight, switch to archer, and then buy the arrows.

    That fixes the problem in CTF at least.

    With WAR, maybe just put out more arrows per workshop.
     
    Bernhardt likes this.
  15. Kouji

    Kouji Cold, Uncaring, Sadistic, Evil and Cruel Meanie Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. MOLEing Over Large Estates - [MOLE]
    2. REKINS OF SEAS: Super Crew of Ultimate Havoking 2: Return of King of KAG: Chapter 420blazeit - REKIN

    Messages:
    2,910
    I find it incredibly amusing that the only people complaining that archers aren't as good as the other classes are people who mainly play knight and are trying to get into archer but clearly can't learn how to archer. On the other hand, people who have played almost exclusively archer are fine with how archer plays out mostly.
    It's plainly clear that you haven't played archer to it's potential and are still middle tier at most. They don't need to be better killing machines because they can already 1v1 a knight and win even against amazing ones.
    If you can't 1v1 another knight and win at least 50% of the time, then you have no skill as archer and any points you make about buffing should simply be ignored. Seriously. I'm not as great as @Verrazano or @JTG in AvK, but I'm certainly not talking out my ass when I can 1v1 another FULL HEALTH knight and win 50% of time against some of the best.
    This is an incredibly stupid and completely invalid point. If you have two teams of equal skill, there is NO WAY IN HELL that a single knight is going to solo the entire game by himself. The entire opposite team would have to be incredibly incompetent for this to happen.
    No he can't, it doesn't even take a half decent archer to stop a builder from attempting to stall by himself. Grapple, pew pew, win. If the builder decides to entomb himself to be protected from the archer, then he isn't stalling anything except the archer.
    You clearly haven't played against a good archer and you yourself clearly aren't a good archer. Bad archers are at mildly annoying, but that's it. Get on during EU peak times, there are way better archers than, NA/Aus times because they've been playing them longer (and the reason for this is probably simply because EU got into Beta way before the rest of the world).
    The discrepancy is simply in that the only people seriously complaining that archer is bad are people who haven't actually played with archer enough to unlock it's potential. The reason for this is that Knight and Builder haven't really changed period since Classic. Archer on the other hand has changed quite a lot and it doesn't play the same. Not saying that being the best knight in classic makes you the best knight in Beta, but apart from learning slightly different times, basically all your skills transfer as knight. Builder simply just changes how they build. Archer on the other hand, does not just transfer over skill wise. There lies the problem. You have to learn from scratch, but since you are so stuck in your old ways, it's clearly prevented you from trying to unlearn what you had from classic (and older build of beta) and trying to relearn archer now.
    Also about "suggestions", the only thing an archer really needs is to get coins from hitting siege and maybe destroying blocks, but that's about it. The only problem I've come across consistently is that I run out of arrows and there is no easy way to replenish them once you are out since you can't attack for more coins.
    Some one already asked you if you wanted video of them ninja capping every single flag in one game a bunch of posts ago, but you clearly ignored it.

    Not directed towards anyone in particular: Anyways, I'm done posting here. It's not like I'm going to change the mind of bad archer who thinks archers are useless because they can't learn how to play archer. If you can't learn how to play archer effectively, then whatever, I don't care if my primary class becomes OP, more fun for me.
     
    Auburn, Yagger and Taiga like this.
  16. Taiga

    Taiga Based God Donator

    Messages:
    89
    Wow,very well written. @Kouji. But honestly, the ones complaining are the one's who lack the patience to learn the class before judging it. If you're being killed most of the time what's that telling you? Work on it. Instead of asking for buffs half the time. AvK is simply a test of your wits and skill with that class, to be able to win means being able to learn and play the archer class.
     
  17. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    I play a lot of archer and I've gotten fairly good at it, so I rarely die. Usually I can get at least 6 bomb arrows every life, and around 3-4:1 KD. Buffing archer damage mid range by 0,5 hearts wouldn't make them OP, just give them a bigger impact when they're actually playing well.

    What I'd like to see the most is increased stun range, no arrow spread and no arrow slashing. Simply letting archers lit kegs would be nice as well. Scaling enemy towers is actually a difficult task with keg strapped to your back, unless the map has multiple routes of course.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  18. hierbo

    hierbo Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    190
    I can't speak for the others on my side of the fence on this issue, but I can speak to my own experience. I know it is just one man's viewpoint, but I can say that I am at best 'ok' at this game, and I have not encountered any archers that can kill me with any regularity. I do get sniped by lucky or unforeseen shots from time to time, but for the most part, archers are quite easy pickings and not to be feared. I'm sure an experienced archer like Kouji or some of the other veterans could turn me into a pincushion, but that's hardly a convincing test, as we're at a significant skill level disparity. For a veteran archer to say that he usually has a good K:D is not a particularly valid data point due to that fact that he is better at the game than most everyone, after all.

    I'd love to try some experiments to confirm these things. You guys may be right, after all, in that there's just a steep learning curve. If it is so steep, though, the class is not very approachable to players compared to other classes and will go widely unused or under-used, as I think it is fair to say we have seen.

    Your points are taken in the sense that a great archer can be reliably victorious, but why is it that it's ok that the archer is the only class that requires you to be great to be effective? Why does a mediocre archer have almost no chance against a mediocre knight?

    In my experience, game balance concerns like this are best optimized around more of a curve in performance; as you gradually improve, you get gradually better results. As it appears now, as an archer you must grind your way through a laborious learning curve, during which you are all but useless, until one day, you have an archery epiphany and can be 'balanced'.

    I think that my original proposal to make the archer more powerful relative to the knight by way of reducing the knight's health by 1 heart and slash damage by 1/2 heart (the values from earlier builds prior to current mechanics) won't particularly add to the archers ninja flag grabbing strategy, which is obviously already effective, as attacking has little to do with that. It will, though, I hope add a second mode of use in the form of defensive harrier. The flag capturing ability is only of use in CTF mode, after all, so it seems reasonable to give them utility besides that.
     
  19. H3llO

    H3llO Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    75
    now i say what nobody tried to say. MOSSTONES (áka bedrock) is WAAY to underpowered. i never ever saw mosstone killing somone intentional!!!

    i think kegshops < bombarrowshops because of the possiblity taking down structures from distance and give the archer a easy to use picklock for stealing flags and take over halls. Only killing Knights with bombarrows is shit since an update.
    Just fix the grappleshooting
     
  20. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

    Messages:
    2,196
    Wow what's with you and making arguments personal all the time, @Kouji? My ability to play archer has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. Also, plenty of archers are complaining. Look at Nighthawk and Raelian. Also Monsteri who plays a bit of both. I think you are the only archer player who is ok with the class, and I thought you weren't even playing.
    The reason I started wanting buffs for archer is because of the times I've played with Verra and seen that perfect archer movement and accuracy and despaired to see that our witchy witch still wasn't accomplishing much of anything. Archers can do some pretty cheeky stuff but in order to actually kill a half competent knight they need to get in close and that's where they die. Archers have no solid answer to bombs at close range and at long range bomb jumping at archers is effective even if they're good.
    I'm talking about the top potential for the class. Yes against scrubs obviously but the point is that even against scrubs archers can't do much of anything. The way this game is played 99% of the team is on public servers full of scrubs. This is the same between skilled players.
    It's potential of what? Archers just don't physicall output enough damage to have a big affect on the game. Sometimes I just let archers hit me because they do such little damage and it slows me down less than shielding.
    You obviously ignored my reply. I told him I had my own video footage of flag capping as archer and I asked him how many enemies were in his way when he did it. He replied that there wren't really many enemies in his way. Sure an archer is good at capping flags is the enemy leaves them unprotected and is minecrafting at behind their tent, but at that point a smarter than average chicken could too. A good knight could have capped all the flags even in spite of droves of enemies.

    Show me video footage of you beating JTG in AvK 50% of the time lol.
     
    Gurin and Scynix like this.