ReBalance mod discussion

Starting this thread because it's getting out of hand in the community fixes thread;

I'm working on a rebalance mod for kag, to balance it around public matches, NOT competitive matches. Currently trying to play builder in kag is a fucking chore, nobody really wants to do it unless you absolutely LOVE building. Even then, most of the builders I see in pub are entombing because it's harder to kill them like that.

My goal is to remove as much of the one-sided fun factors as possible. Sure, it's fun to shit on people with keg drops, but it's pretty awful in the other person's shoes. This is why so many people leave when they lose a match, not because they're mad that they lost, but because they didn't have fun while doing it.

new list of proposed changes:
numbers in bold underline are on the test server
numbers in bold underline are being tweaked
Archer;
1) Archers can now dig through DIRT only, using spacebar.
Reason: give the archers a little more flexibility when it comes to terrain control.
2) Archers can fletch arrows from logs ala classic, using the same mechanic as above.
Reason: quality of life tweak for the archer, isn't hard to code.
3) Fire arrows deal 1 hearts of damage on hit(full charge), and now deal 2 hearts of damage over time.
Reason: gives the archer a bit more combat capabilities through the use of coin.
4) Bomb arrows cost 30g, and deal as much damage as a regular bomb.
Reason: gives the archer a choice, some tile damage, or more player damage, as fire arrows will cost the same but give 2. 60 coins gets you 2 bomb arrows which can break 4 tiles(in addition to damaging the other tiles) if you aim correctly, which is more damage than the previous 50 coins for 1 bomb arrow, even with the nerfed damage. This raises the skill ceiling with them, as you can't just aim in the general direction of the flag coffin, you need to hit the hole you made with the last arrow.
5) Arrows now deflect bombs as proposed by @BucketEmpty, Water arrows set bombs velocity to 0 so they fall out of the sky.
Reason: sounds pretty cool and easy to do, kudos :) this is a rare enough occurrence so I don't think it'll be too overpowered. afternote: this is a really fun change thanks bucket!
6) Bomb Satchel.
Stats: 0.5 hearts of health, damage similar to the old bomb arrows. 5 seconds to explode.
Reason: A more offensive version of the bomb arrow, it is more counter-able, and could be the counter-buff to the bomb arrows that we're looking for, and ultimately it would balance the count of special items between the two classes. The archer shop sells 4 items but 1 of those is the item required for regular attacks.
7) Archers can now shimmy into 1 tile tunnels, while crouching.
Reason: dirt ninjas activate.

Builder;
1) Drills take longer to overheat while digging stone/wood built blocks/doors.
Reason: to encourage offensive use of them on enemy towers.
2) Builders do more damage to stone blocks.
Reason: to take the focus from underground to the surface.
3) Builders carry heavy objects at normal speeds(flags, kegs, etc).
Reason: builders must become the muscle wizard.
4) Builder axe mode.
Reason: to give builders more variation in gameplay, while increasing their survivability. Builders taking out knights and archers with 1 heart left is very possible now, and wood objects are destroyed easily by the axe. Cannot dig dirt or stone. Hitting a knights shield will stun the attacking builder, similar to jabbing.
5) Builder axe mode walk/jump animations.
Reason: To visibly show that the builder is using his axe, so you can know to be more careful if you have 1 heart and they're nearby. Builder will carry the axe on his shoulder while in axe mode.

Knight;
1) Bomb radius reduced to 48 pixels(from 64), and for the damage falloff do 1 heart at the edge of the explosion.
Reason: bomb throwing can net a lot of random kills because it has a large explosion range: 64 radius = 128 diameter, 128/8pixelspertile= 16 tiles. This change would make bombs require more precise aim while being more punchy.
2) Velocity gained from bombjumping is more horizontal than vertical.
Reason: Bombjumps would require a tall structure to get over other tall structures, placing more value in builders doing their job.
3) Bomb drag increased.
Reason: Bombs can fly, doesn't make sense.
4) Kegs do not explode when falling from high up, you need to time keg drops now.
Reason: keg drops are often used for defending in pub, being thrown off of your teams tower to destroy an incoming wave of knights and builders, who had a good chance of breaking into the flag. I have seen many pub matches stalemate because some "pro" doesn't want to lose. To change the keg drop from a defensive move to an offensive one, they would explode on impact when launched from a catapult while lit.

In General:
1) Heart drop rate changed to 50% from 100%.
Reason: to prevent snowballing by "pro" players. If you want consistent heals, carry some food in your inv(which limits your special item count).
2) Top two blocks of the map can be built on.
Reason: to help with building on smaller maps.
3) Boulders now do damage based on velocity.y, pointblanking people with them is no longer possible.
Reason: being insta-killed by a boulder after a 1 tile drop is complete bullshit, now you need to make the boulder fall faster than 6.0f to cause insta-kills.

TESTING SERVER:
Name: ReBalance mod testing
Password: TEST

Please suggest any changes you can think of, I want to make public matches enjoyable for ALL classes, not just the combat ones. Also be warned, any flamebaiting in this thread will result in an infraction, keep the discussion clean.

-Rayne, Skinney, & Verrazano​

 

Yes, they are a ranged attack which can be aimed with pin-point accuracy, you don't need to bombjump, you have a grapple. Although I have considered increasing the damage to that of a regular bomb, but that would allow for instant kills on a direct hit, unless you compensate.

implying coins arent infinite whereas stone is not.

1 bomb arrow can destroy an entire line of stone doors if someone is standing in them(archers, anyone? )

It's easy to stay "safe" as both classes, but what I meant was safety while attacking, you shoot from range and if you're not half-retarded you won't die all that easily.

Forgetting that you spawn with 100 wood and 30 stone every life, and the amount of wood laying on the ground is usually around 100 aswell, there's 10 platforms, doesn't take much time to spam those for some coins, sure it's not farming 150 coins but you cant farm that much with knight in a short time either.

Yes they do, maybe not in your closed off little circle of gather, but they're used in pub matches quite often, and I'm balancing the mod to work around pub matches.

the only statement in there that translates to skill is #2, and honestly that really isn't a factor in using the item, it's just part of the game. what if i gave knight a super keg that destroyed half the map for 300 coins? "well you'd have to buy it and then get it to the other side of the map so it's skillful "

also considering it's a RANGED ATTACK it's often used from the middle of the map, which is often less dangerous than getting to the enemy side unless it's one of those crap no-man's land maps.

pretty sure the meaning of this rebalance mod is still lost on you archers, its to make builder in pub matches actually mean something.

 

looks like you rekt blue tiger so hard he deleted his post?

 

he's answering from last Blue Tiger's post on the other thread
https://forum.kag2d.com/threads/community-fixes-inbound.23166/page-5#post-339015

 

i quoted his post from the community fixes thread, as we were derailing it hard, as i said in the original post, keep this thread clean from comments like this please.

 

coins aren't very rare either, you're not making a good argument here. stone is MUCH more valuable than coins because it CAN run out, and on most of the official maps it isn't that abundant.

pubs, pubs put doors on the front. I see it almost every day, and there will always be some pub to stand in your doors, you know it's true.

yes I know how to play archer, but thanks for your confidence in me, it really makes me want to discuss this like rational human beings when the other side is constantly trying to undermine me and make me look like I've never played the class before talking about it.

I said I was balancing around pub matches, there is usually a semi-decent player on each team capable of doing these things.

I see a catapult almost every match in US.

Most matches I play are stalemated by keg drops and then finally won with bomb arrows after 40 minutes of constant grind.

often used ineffectively up close too, not sure what point you're trying to make here.

it's usually an archer or a knight using explosives in my experience, maybe we don't have as many decent builders in US, but this is what I've seen, and it repeats itself every time I log onto a server.

 

okay sorry, I was just wondering where his original post went.

I like every change you've made so far. The boulder thing is 10/10, and I actually like the bomb arrow change too. I think if the damage was also changed to equal a bomb, then they would go right back to annoying builders.

Spoiler: On builders and bombjumping

But in the end, builders are going to entomb themselves in bunkers no matter what because that is their only defense against knights and their bombs. Builders absolutely need at least a small "safe zone" in case their team's push flops for a bit, and as long as knights can bombjump over everything then bunkers will remain the only suitable safe zone, even past a huge tower. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, it's just the way things are.

I know a lot of people love bombjumping over the tallest wall possible and locking down an entire team for some time, but I'm afraid that might be the epitome of one-sided, veteran-only fun. It might fit this mod to do something about that, to bring more of the action back to the ground, whether by allowing buildings to reach the height limit, nerfing repeated bomb jumps, or something else. I know that's not a very specific suggestion, and it could be pretty drastic, but I think forcing the veterans to work with the newbies down on the front lines rather than ignore / pillage them might be a good thing.

Spoiler: On digging buff / tunneling

I like that idea (especially if it focuses on doors). If tunneling does end up being a problem, (and you'd be willing to try something that might seem kinda radical,) I'd suggest making bomb explosions ignore dirt blocks and damage players through them (if that's possible). I think it would be more interesting than simply making dirt harder to dig, because that would create other annoyances for builders. Then tunnelers would have to scurry around in a game of cat and mouse, or make some badass tunnel fortifications. It might be hard for new players to notice and understand that change, but maybe with some dust particles and a sound effect it could be made more obvious.

Another small change that might make builder life better is if everyone spawned as builder by default for the resupply mats.

..sorry for the long post I got excited :>

 

What? What kind of noob doesn't play multiclass? The only people I see "maining" a class are people who are competetive and know what they're good at. He's trying to make it more comfortable to play any and every class. That kind of flexibility is a good thing to encourage in such a small community.

It really isn't hard to afford bomb arrows. The trick is to switch your damn class. You don't even have to do that sometimes, if a builder will buy you some. Builders make fuckin bank, but that usually just ends up as a little keg pile. Sometimes it goes into bomb arrows though, and that's often an even safer way to demolish an entire base. Archers are just really poor most of the time. They're not the money makers.

Most pubs I play seem to be absolutely dominated by knight pushing. Builders are the ones who actually get in there and dig open the flag room, but that's because the knights were able to clear the path.

 

Yes I agree stone running out should happen, but as it stands bomb arrows are far too efficient at doing so.

Been calling people out on it for 3 years, doesn't seem to have any effect. Thanks for letting me know though.

Yeah, you've completely missed the point of this, I will no longer respond to you because it seems you cannot read my posts correctly. The keg drops cause the stalemates, bomb arrows can only end them because they are really powerful. The point is to avoid the stalemate altogether.

nerfing bombjumps a bit could work out well, I think I will also remove the two-block no build zone on the top of the map, it only prevents builders from sealing up the top of your tower effectively(made worse on small maps).

That seems like something that would be hard to depict animation-wise, I think a better(and simpler) solution would be to redesign maps with more bedrock, so that tunneling could only be effective to travel a short portion of the map underground.

would be annoying when you're playing other classes, but I could add it in as a test on the server. Not very keen though.

that's ok! I value the perspective of every player in kag, even if I disagree with it. after all one person balancing a game might be biased towards certain aspects. If a strong valid point is made against what I think should be done, I will reconsider my idea.

To solve this, I think replacing the cost of them with materials + a little bit of coins would work. 200 wood, 50 stone, and 25 coins or something for a cata. As a counter, the siege shop should probably be made a bit more expensive so that if it's destroyed you actually have quite a bit of a loss.

This could work, but it will need some extensive testing.

As I said above, not very keen on this because it could be very confusing for new players. The random deaths in kag I feel contribute to our low player retention rates, when you die with no visuals of why it happened, you're just going to blame it on a "buggy" game. Since bombs wouldn't actually break the dirt I could see it not working out well.

However, perhaps digging built blocks could be faster than digging natural blocks, so it'd be easier to break into the tower, rather than digging underground.