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ReBalance mod discussion

Discussion in 'Classes & Mechanics' started by Rayne, Mar 13, 2015.

  1. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

    Starting this thread because it's getting out of hand in the community fixes thread;

    I'm working on a rebalance mod for kag, to balance it around public matches, NOT competitive matches. Currently trying to play builder in kag is a fucking chore, nobody really wants to do it unless you absolutely LOVE building. Even then, most of the builders I see in pub are entombing because it's harder to kill them like that.

    My goal is to remove as much of the one-sided fun factors as possible. Sure, it's fun to shit on people with keg drops, but it's pretty awful in the other person's shoes. This is why so many people leave when they lose a match, not because they're mad that they lost, but because they didn't have fun while doing it.

    new list of proposed changes:
    numbers in bold underline are on the test server
    numbers in bold underline are being tweaked
    1) Archers can now dig through DIRT only, using spacebar.
    Reason: give the archers a little more flexibility when it comes to terrain control.
    2) Archers can fletch arrows from logs ala classic, using the same mechanic as above.
    Reason: quality of life tweak for the archer, isn't hard to code.
    3) Fire arrows deal 1 hearts of damage on hit(full charge), and now deal 2 hearts of damage over time.
    Reason: gives the archer a bit more combat capabilities through the use of coin.
    4) Bomb arrows cost 30g, and deal as much damage as a regular bomb.
    Reason: gives the archer a choice, some tile damage, or more player damage, as fire arrows will cost the same but give 2. 60 coins gets you 2 bomb arrows which can break 4 tiles(in addition to damaging the other tiles) if you aim correctly, which is more damage than the previous 50 coins for 1 bomb arrow, even with the nerfed damage. This raises the skill ceiling with them, as you can't just aim in the general direction of the flag coffin, you need to hit the hole you made with the last arrow.
    5) Arrows now deflect bombs as proposed by @BucketEmpty, Water arrows set bombs velocity to 0 so they fall out of the sky.
    Reason: sounds pretty cool and easy to do, kudos :) this is a rare enough occurrence so I don't think it'll be too overpowered. afternote: this is a really fun change thanks bucket!
    6) Bomb Satchel.
    Stats: 0.5 hearts of health, damage similar to the old bomb arrows. 5 seconds to explode.
    Reason: A more offensive version of the bomb arrow, it is more counter-able, and could be the counter-buff to the bomb arrows that we're looking for, and ultimately it would balance the count of special items between the two classes. The archer shop sells 4 items but 1 of those is the item required for regular attacks.
    7) Archers can now shimmy into 1 tile tunnels, while crouching.
    Reason: dirt ninjas activate.

    1) Drills take longer to overheat while digging stone/wood built blocks/doors.
    Reason: to encourage offensive use of them on enemy towers.
    2) Builders do more damage to stone blocks.
    Reason: to take the focus from underground to the surface.
    3) Builders carry heavy objects at normal speeds(flags, kegs, etc).
    Reason: builders must become the muscle wizard.
    4) Builder axe mode.
    Reason: to give builders more variation in gameplay, while increasing their survivability. Builders taking out knights and archers with 1 heart left is very possible now, and wood objects are destroyed easily by the axe. Cannot dig dirt or stone. Hitting a knights shield will stun the attacking builder, similar to jabbing.
    5) Builder axe mode walk/jump animations.
    Reason: To visibly show that the builder is using his axe, so you can know to be more careful if you have 1 heart and they're nearby. Builder will carry the axe on his shoulder while in axe mode.

    1) Bomb radius reduced to 48 pixels(from 64), and for the damage falloff do 1 heart at the edge of the explosion.
    Reason: bomb throwing can net a lot of random kills because it has a large explosion range: 64 radius = 128 diameter, 128/8pixelspertile= 16 tiles. This change would make bombs require more precise aim while being more punchy.
    2) Velocity gained from bombjumping is more horizontal than vertical.
    Reason: Bombjumps would require a tall structure to get over other tall structures, placing more value in builders doing their job.
    3) Bomb drag increased.
    Reason: Bombs can fly, doesn't make sense.
    4) Kegs do not explode when falling from high up, you need to time keg drops now.
    Reason: keg drops are often used for defending in pub, being thrown off of your teams tower to destroy an incoming wave of knights and builders, who had a good chance of breaking into the flag. I have seen many pub matches stalemate because some "pro" doesn't want to lose. To change the keg drop from a defensive move to an offensive one, they would explode on impact when launched from a catapult while lit.

    In General:
    1) Heart drop rate changed to 50% from 100%.
    Reason: to prevent snowballing by "pro" players. If you want consistent heals, carry some food in your inv(which limits your special item count).
    2) Top two blocks of the map can be built on.
    Reason: to help with building on smaller maps.
    3) Boulders now do damage based on velocity.y, pointblanking people with them is no longer possible.
    Reason: being insta-killed by a boulder after a 1 tile drop is complete bullshit, now you need to make the boulder fall faster than 6.0f to cause insta-kills.

    Name: ReBalance mod testing
    Password: TEST

    Please suggest any changes you can think of, I want to make public matches enjoyable for ALL classes, not just the combat ones. Also be warned, any flamebaiting in this thread will result in an infraction, keep the discussion clean.

    -Rayne, Skinney, & Verrazano​
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2015
  2. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

    Yes, they are a ranged attack which can be aimed with pin-point accuracy, you don't need to bombjump, you have a grapple. Although I have considered increasing the damage to that of a regular bomb, but that would allow for instant kills on a direct hit, unless you compensate.

    implying coins arent infinite whereas stone is not.

    1 bomb arrow can destroy an entire line of stone doors if someone is standing in them(archers, anyone? :rekt:)

    It's easy to stay "safe" as both classes, but what I meant was safety while attacking, you shoot from range and if you're not half-retarded you won't die all that easily.

    Forgetting that you spawn with 100 wood and 30 stone every life, and the amount of wood laying on the ground is usually around 100 aswell, there's 10 platforms, doesn't take much time to spam those for some coins, sure it's not farming 150 coins but you cant farm that much with knight in a short time either.

    Yes they do, maybe not in your closed off little circle of gather, but they're used in pub matches quite often, and I'm balancing the mod to work around pub matches.

    the only statement in there that translates to skill is #2, and honestly that really isn't a factor in using the item, it's just part of the game. what if i gave knight a super keg that destroyed half the map for 300 coins? "well you'd have to buy it and then get it to the other side of the map so it's skillful :rekt:"

    also considering it's a RANGED ATTACK it's often used from the middle of the map, which is often less dangerous than getting to the enemy side unless it's one of those crap no-man's land maps.

    pretty sure the meaning of this rebalance mod is still lost on you archers, its to make builder in pub matches actually mean something.
  3. Yagger

    Yagger Kouji's bitch 5eva Staff Alumni Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    i agree with everything on this list.

    i wonder though about how fast builders can now dig tho, because you know

    Birdman159, Kububv, Noburu and 7 others like this.
  4. Potatobird

    Potatobird Haxor Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    looks like you rekt blue tiger so hard he deleted his post?
    bru-jaz and Asu like this.
  5. 8x

    8x Elimination Et Choix Traduisant la Realité Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

  6. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

    Stone isn't rare on most maps.

    Who puts doors on the front? And it's the archer's fault for standing in the door instead of going up to shkler archer-nest.

    Shoot from a range, whilst still trying to hit a targets, dodging bombs and arrows coming in.

    You said you were balancing around pubs, not many noobs play more than one class, let alone good enough to grind coins as a knight, switch to archer then be able to destroy a base.

    Actually, Gather is one of the few places I actually see siege.

    You over-exaggerate the bomb arrow's power and under-estimate its counters.

    Often used ineffectively from the middle of the map.

    Builders are usually the ones to win the game in pubs so I don't know what you're talking about.
    Fuzzle likes this.
  7. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

    i quoted his post from the community fixes thread, as we were derailing it hard, as i said in the original post, keep this thread clean from comments like this please.
    bru-jaz, Noburu and BlueLuigi like this.
  8. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

    coins aren't very rare either, you're not making a good argument here. stone is MUCH more valuable than coins because it CAN run out, and on most of the official maps it isn't that abundant.

    pubs, pubs put doors on the front. I see it almost every day, and there will always be some pub to stand in your doors, you know it's true.

    yes I know how to play archer, but thanks for your confidence in me, it really makes me want to discuss this like rational human beings when the other side is constantly trying to undermine me and make me look like I've never played the class before talking about it.

    I said I was balancing around pub matches, there is usually a semi-decent player on each team capable of doing these things.

    I see a catapult almost every match in US.

    Most matches I play are stalemated by keg drops and then finally won with bomb arrows after 40 minutes of constant grind.

    often used ineffectively up close too, not sure what point you're trying to make here.

    it's usually an archer or a knight using explosives in my experience, maybe we don't have as many decent builders in US, but this is what I've seen, and it repeats itself every time I log onto a server.
  9. Potatobird

    Potatobird Haxor Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    okay sorry, I was just wondering where his original post went.

    I like every change you've made so far. The boulder thing is 10/10, and I actually like the bomb arrow change too. I think if the damage was also changed to equal a bomb, then they would go right back to annoying builders.

    But in the end, builders are going to entomb themselves in bunkers no matter what because that is their only defense against knights and their bombs. Builders absolutely need at least a small "safe zone" in case their team's push flops for a bit, and as long as knights can bombjump over everything then bunkers will remain the only suitable safe zone, even past a huge tower. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, it's just the way things are.

    I know a lot of people love bombjumping over the tallest wall possible and locking down an entire team for some time, but I'm afraid that might be the epitome of one-sided, veteran-only fun. It might fit this mod to do something about that, to bring more of the action back to the ground, whether by allowing buildings to reach the height limit, nerfing repeated bomb jumps, or something else. I know that's not a very specific suggestion, and it could be pretty drastic, but I think forcing the veterans to work with the newbies down on the front lines rather than ignore / pillage them might be a good thing.

    I like that idea (especially if it focuses on doors). If tunneling does end up being a problem, (and you'd be willing to try something that might seem kinda radical,) I'd suggest making bomb explosions ignore dirt blocks and damage players through them (if that's possible). I think it would be more interesting than simply making dirt harder to dig, because that would create other annoyances for builders. Then tunnelers would have to scurry around in a game of cat and mouse, or make some badass tunnel fortifications. It might be hard for new players to notice and understand that change, but maybe with some dust particles and a sound effect it could be made more obvious.

    Another small change that might make builder life better is if everyone spawned as builder by default for the resupply mats.

    ..sorry for the long post I got excited :>
  10. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    I'm mostly tired of the siege engines since they are uncommonly used, but wreck so much face.

    When it comes to bomb jumping, make it more horizontal a la alpha.

    When it comes to tunneling, why not both? Harder to mine in general, but explosions penetration (at most for players) penetrates through pure dirt. Mostly to screw everyone, especially knights from tunneling.
    Noburu, hierbo and Rayne like this.
  11. Potatobird

    Potatobird Haxor Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    What? What kind of noob doesn't play multiclass? The only people I see "maining" a class are people who are competetive and know what they're good at. He's trying to make it more comfortable to play any and every class. That kind of flexibility is a good thing to encourage in such a small community.

    It really isn't hard to afford bomb arrows. The trick is to switch your damn class. You don't even have to do that sometimes, if a builder will buy you some. Builders make fuckin bank, but that usually just ends up as a little keg pile. Sometimes it goes into bomb arrows though, and that's often an even safer way to demolish an entire base. Archers are just really poor most of the time. They're not the money makers.

    Most pubs I play seem to be absolutely dominated by knight pushing. Builders are the ones who actually get in there and dig open the flag room, but that's because the knights were able to clear the path.
    bru-jaz and Noburu like this.
  12. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

    100 stone on a map with a good amount of stone is far easier to get than 150 coins to break into an enemy flagbase. Stone running out is a good way to remove stalemates if both teams have builders with braincells.

    Even if doors are on the front, it's the fault of the retard who stands in the doors, not the weapon used to counter their stupidity. Call them out on it.


    So you want to remove the bomb arrows which get rid of the stalemate? You're a genius!

    Don't even need a decent builder, just someone capable of becoming one with the rat is easily able to cap the flag.

    But unless I see some huge stupidity flying around, I'll stop posting here because I won't be playing your mod :).
    PUNK123 likes this.
  13. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    I never normally see a take down from the inquisition of one overstacked archer, just spasmodic builders fucking you raw, and a retry in the next 3 or so minutes.

    That doesn't answer his response. The issue is that this is being balanced in light of an equal measure of pub and "pro" players as the average server population.

    It's outright to melt 200 stone with on arrow regardless of who is being special, or not. Recall his counter example with the totally-balanced 300c super keg?

    He already posed a fix for stalemating with keg drops. Outright preventing it unless it is launched from a catapult, lit. A keg that is run in on the ground at least has a good measure of preventability compared to bomb arrows, siege, keg drops.

    Regardless, I see that it is a combination of kegging, and bomb hailing that weathers down a bunker, and the defenses hitherto.

    You are over valuing even builders some times. Though I do digress that tunneling is bullshit, especially when no one uses fire arrows, bombs, or depletes the stone deposits near the bunker.

    Out of all of this, I want the gameplay to be more commited, less melting structures and armies from downtown, less builders simply tunnel-pro'ing it up, and especially archers being more than two steps ahead of everyone else.
  14. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

    Yes I agree stone running out should happen, but as it stands bomb arrows are far too efficient at doing so.

    Been calling people out on it for 3 years, doesn't seem to have any effect. Thanks for letting me know though.

    Yeah, you've completely missed the point of this, I will no longer respond to you because it seems you cannot read my posts correctly. The keg drops cause the stalemates, bomb arrows can only end them because they are really powerful. The point is to avoid the stalemate altogether.

    nerfing bombjumps a bit could work out well, I think I will also remove the two-block no build zone on the top of the map, it only prevents builders from sealing up the top of your tower effectively(made worse on small maps).
    That seems like something that would be hard to depict animation-wise, I think a better(and simpler) solution would be to redesign maps with more bedrock, so that tunneling could only be effective to travel a short portion of the map underground.

    would be annoying when you're playing other classes, but I could add it in as a test on the server. Not very keen though.

    that's ok! I value the perspective of every player in kag, even if I disagree with it. after all one person balancing a game might be biased towards certain aspects. If a strong valid point is made against what I think should be done, I will reconsider my idea.

    To solve this, I think replacing the cost of them with materials + a little bit of coins would work. 200 wood, 50 stone, and 25 coins or something for a cata. As a counter, the siege shop should probably be made a bit more expensive so that if it's destroyed you actually have quite a bit of a loss.

    This could work, but it will need some extensive testing.

    As I said above, not very keen on this because it could be very confusing for new players. The random deaths in kag I feel contribute to our low player retention rates, when you die with no visuals of why it happened, you're just going to blame it on a "buggy" game. Since bombs wouldn't actually break the dirt I could see it not working out well.

    However, perhaps digging built blocks could be faster than digging natural blocks, so it'd be easier to break into the tower, rather than digging underground.
    FuzzyBlueBaron, Noburu and 101i like this.
  15. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Hmmm, to avoid a seemingly buggy game.
    Probably have a white gas cloud (distinct from the dark grey and light blue of other munitions) , aka spalling, spray out from the offending direction. (This could add a mechanic of sounding tunnels with bombs, because it would be visible as all hell) (For the gas, probably spawn white gas where ever there is natural tiles between the epicenters, and the next valid air space)
    I digress with the the natural block damage from bombs, slowing it down would be pretty neat.
  16. hierbo

    hierbo Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    :thumbs_up: so far on the ideas. Another idea that I had been tossing around on the subject of pubs is this:

    Consider a notional class of "huge" items, as follows: flag, keg, dinghy, boulder, log, crate, mill saw, corpse, and any other I may be missing, you get the idea

    These items would all have very similar behavior, which we could argue about, but here's what I'm thinking to start off with, anyway:
    • don't fit in inventory
    • reduces carrying character's movement rate
    • can't be thrown, only dropped with little forward momentum, if any
    • reduces carrying character's jump and/or wall-run height
    • reduces the effect of knock-back on the carrying character (he's too heavy to be moved as much)
    • deals damage to characters it touches, but only when moving at high speed
    Currently, the large items each have their own custom behaviors, leading to a hodge-podge that needlessly complicates things for new and/or casual players, and doesn't really add much to the meta-game, so there's not a ton of point in keeping those divergent behaviors in. It obviously also addresses the current boulder madness mechanics, and might possibly make it a little tougher to do defensive keg exploits or cheap keg attacks.

    What does anyone else think about this game mechanics streamline? Reasons in your responses, please.
  17. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    So an archer has to hit a knight 4 times to kill it? with a lot of its destructibility nerfed? Wouldn't that make archer a "choir". it seems like if anyone plays archer on your server it'll be to camp
    [(with nerfed bomb arrows attacking seems overly difficult)but I do see lefty every other game with him unload 15+ arrows into our flag]
  18. hierbo

    hierbo Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Indeed, it may cause undesirable results, be we've got to test it to see how it plays out. There's a lot of dissatisfaction with balance as it is now, so I think he's on the right track in systematically removing the "tactical nuke" equivalents from the game. Classes like the archer are kinda wimpy in general, but just giving them one cheap super move like the nuclear bomb arrow doesn't make up for it. They're still underpowered in some areas and overpowered in others. Each ailment needs to be addressed in turn.

    If it does turn out that the archer is just too useless after this, which you totally might be right about, then maybe we look at other tweaks to fix what's really wrong, rather than try to falsely balance it by "throwing them a bone" in the form of an OP move (bomb arrow).
  19. finleymars

    finleymars Ballista Bolt Thrower Staff Alumni

    I feel as though the bomb arrow:bomb_arrow: nerf is not all that necessary. Maybe making bomb arrows have less range, or decreasing their speed through the air could make them both easier to dodge:teabag: and to intercept:knight:. Builders breaking blocks faster does not seem like a buff that will benefit the flow of the game. Builders tend to (in my experience) have a fine time tunneling into a base with some patience:potato:. Making them build faster will make the whole "run up, cover yourself in :stone_door:stone:castle_wall:, dig into base:hammer:,:red:steal flag:blue:, escape" deal a little too common:builder:. All other balances seem really nice. ::):I like emotes if you haven't noticed :wink:
    FuzzyBlueBaron, Bint, Rayne and 2 others like this.
  20. hierbo

    hierbo Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Holy emoji! Anyways, that is a good point. An entombing and tunneling builder is nearly impossible to stop. Even if you do, your base is often FUBAR afterwards. Maybe some more discussion on builders and this meta-game is in order.

    Regarding the bomb arrows, though:
    Consider the amount of time, energy, and resources (stone and wood) that go into a structure. Then, consider the amount of time, energy and resources that go into getting and firing a bomb arrow. I think its fair to say that there is an imbalanced proportion there. Getting the bomb arrow requires gold, which, while not super easy to get, is available in unlimited quantities. Things that cost only gold and can destroy stone must be looked at very carefully to make sure they're not too one-sided.

    Being a builder is a maddening, thankless, un-rewarding chore due to things like this, which makes many players never want to play as builder. I don't know it, but I think and hope that nerfing the bomb arrow will help with that, and maybe encourage more siege engine use.
    Noburu likes this.