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[1026] Does anyone else think the archers should be more powerful?

Discussion in 'Archer' started by BIOBOSS, Feb 8, 2014.

?

What you think:

  1. archers are fine as they are

    56.9%
  2. they are a bit weak for only range class

    43.1%
  1. Part by part: I don't know how to argument, but I still firmly dislike +1 heart for the archer, I'm neutral about the damage though, it can work well actually.

    Don't really understood what 'over charge' mean, would it be the Legola's shot? if so, I see no reason for why it should be removed.

    Faster full charge is also pointless, it had been widely improved already. The 4 seconds it took to shot an arrow on classic were the longest 4 seconds ever...

    Arrow slash reduced/nerfed is of my liking, even more if the decisive factor is distance/closeness.


    How exactly would a completely coherent and functional hitbox (considering it would be completely coherent and functional) make archers bad at aiming? You still need to hit the right place, only that this time it would actually work.

    Now to the arrows:
    Poison arrow? Insta kill should never ever be mentioned. vide: ol' backstab times
    Smoke arrow? Why?
    Acid arrow? Bomb arrows does it better.
    Multi-arrow? Legola's shot does it better.
    Ladder arrow? Arrow ladder does it better.
    Mine arrow? Go archer, buy mine, put it in inventory, grapple tower, place it on enemy base does it better.
     
  2. kodysch

    kodysch Ballista Bolt Thrower Staff Alumni
    1. Archers [Arch] (Recruiting)

    Messages:
    454
    I like the idea of smoke arrows they could: be used to lay down a couple to hide in or shoot from, hide a builder tunneling into a wall, mess up knight fights or give you time to escape like batman!

    Solid idea.
     
  3. epenow

    epenow Oppressed banana cookie
    1. Archers [Arch] (Recruiting)

    Messages:
    349
    People would just spam attacks in smoke since people would only use it to sneak, just like crates
     
  4. I used to think the same. Then, my entire team was spawn camped by a team of 5 expert archers.
     
  5. epenow

    epenow Oppressed banana cookie
    1. Archers [Arch] (Recruiting)

    Messages:
    349
    What dose that have to do with smoke or crates....
     
  6. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    nabuco, you are forgetting that archers could shoot slightly faster than knights slashing in b800 (they could somewhat hold back a knight, even with microstuns, and no knockback, it was mostly because of the knife though...). I'm talking about then.
    The issue with +1 max damage is that one maul can destroy any knight, and one shot could instant kill archers as they are.

    The faster full shot is to strengthen the defense of the archer by being able to ward off a shielding knight, much like another knight. The extra damage is to make up for the fact that the removal of overcharge.

    also i have an idea on what to do with the special ammo.

    the thought here is to slightly buff them, but mostly side-grade them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  7. Nivlac_13

    Nivlac_13 Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    115
    Avoid it. Complication is not a good way to buff something.
     
  8. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    it is something else, and affects other classes.
    otherwise, it is not complicated.
     
    Nabuco likes this.
  9. Mainly because I wasn't around on Beta back then :c
    Insta kill against archers does sound bad, but plus one heart health isn't good either, so a solution would be to increase only half heart of damage to full charged arrow (1.5h damage), it still takes two shots to kill an archer, and three for a knight. But then again I really don't think that would make the arches more powerful, nor it is needed at all.
    And about the faster full shot, I don't know, there isn't need for the archer to be so good at close range, if you get to kill people at front, great, if not, there is always the retreat option with the grapple.
     
  10. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    it's just that archers are currently in bad sorts fending off knights, set aside in the cases long before they are in 20b range, or they have a last ditch shotgun maul.
    close range is a pretty damn big thing for archers, this would make it less so.

    the thought was, from, b800, that the hook, stuns, and knockback was to replace the knife, and make the archer a stronger opponent, and easier to access. because stun, and knockback makes for a better defense/easier than a micro stun, and zero knockback. the hook was to make them comparable to a knight in terms of mobility, especially the escaping part.
    I'm not sure when the overcharge came into that, but it definitely slowed the archers down, and relegated them to fighting at pointlessly long ranges (and camping), via spamming for low damage, especially with how little health they have, and over reliance on the easily blocked shotgun stuns. (this is not to mention how much easier it is to kill them with a bomb at range with their lowered health. heightened health is needed there, what with the increased ways a person can do at least 2h damage, less need to hide. more max damage to balance them against themselves. also, no more triple bomb arrows, because those things are more assured than a situated ballista, and worse, can happen pretty much anywhere and anytime)


    the worst part here is that i'm typing with two broken wrists
     
    Nabuco likes this.
  11. GreenLich

    GreenLich Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    31
    yeah i also think archers are a little weak. i made some sugestion on how to valorize the archer in the sugestion/idea section.
     
  12. Again, is "overcharge" the Legola's/triple shot? If so, I don't see how it slowed them down, of course, it makes camping somewhat easier, but there would and there will be campers with or without it anyway. Also, I thought the "shotgun stun" was referring to use the triple shot at short distance, which I think works great to fight at close range, only annoying thing is how unnaturally it pushes the enemy away.
     
  13. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    If it's not by shield, it's by sword that you can block them. It's surprisingly not hard.
    As far as slowing them down goes, it's pretty much all that they think to do. They spend huge tracks of time spewing arrows, and sitting in place, or awkwardly hobbling around with the slow down they get from having a bow drawn. It makes them sitting ducks trying to rely on the overcharge to deal with the knight, which gets them killed a lot more often than not..
     
    FuzzyBlueBaron likes this.
  14. Most of those things you pointed out deal more with player's behavior, and in my opinion, changing the class mechanics not necessarily changes how well people will play it. #CampersWillBeCampers
    And with right timing is highly improbable that an archer will die if trying to deal with a knight, is always possible to grapple away to safety and then start to charge, instead of doing it on the run.
     
  15. Trumbles

    Trumbles Bison Rider

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    454
    Grappling and half-shotting. I can be moving twice as fast as a knight while still filling him with arrows.
     
  16. epenow

    epenow Oppressed banana cookie
    1. Archers [Arch] (Recruiting)

    Messages:
    349
    Half shoting will result in less range and less damage, have fun takeing 3 minutes to kill one knight while his team comes and gets.
     
  17. Trumbles

    Trumbles Bison Rider

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    454
    You haven't learned this yet? Arrow damage is based on velocity, not solely charge level. On even ground/from higher ground, half charges carry enough velocity to deal a full heart of damage. People call me a hacker for shooting twice as fast and doing a full heart each time because of this.

    Heck, from a high enough place, even quarter shots can deal a full heart. Next time, please be sure of something before you shoot me down.

    All increasing the charge level does, is add more velocity to the arrow, and allow the possibility of stuns at full charge.

    Have you ever noticed, when shooting at an archer who is very high above you, that when your arrows start slowing down at the top of their arc, they only deal half a heart of damage? Same thing. Arrow damage does either 0.5 hearts, or 1 heart, based on how fast it's going.
     
    FuzzyBlueBaron likes this.
  18. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    stunning is range based, but yeah, damage has always been velocity.
     
  19. Jlordo

    Jlordo Nobody Donator

    Messages:
    417
    I probably missed something here as I just skimmed over the posts, but +1h +1 max damage -legolas/overcharge sounds like classic archers with a grappling hook. You can 2shot knights and a slash cant' oneshot you.

    In classic, you could be a incredibly agile due to the slow movement speed and ability to climb trees and other tricks. Good archers could easily kill an experienced knight very quickly, even in seconds, with your high damage output. If you gave them a grappling hook which balances out for the rapid playstyle of Beta (fuck it I'm still calling it that) and you essentially have a class that has the offensive prowess to somewhat rival the knight, but also many support options in special arrows.

    I honestly have no idea how to balance the archer without reworking many mechanics of the game, but that is in the case that archer have to be "fixed" at all.
     
  20. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    Well, I keep on saying the stronger archers with no overcharge are more like b800 archers.

    Classic had its issue that archers needed incredible amounts of space, time to charge up, but it gave them the chance to be powerful snipers. Otherwise, they had some form of fencing, but it only worked in the context of how slow alpha/classic was.
    B800 have lower range, had pretty weak special ammo (this was the time when water/fire shined for them), but they were a lot faster to fire, though difficult at fencing because they had no stun whatsoever, but it was very effective. They are very fit for combat in Beta, but they lacked defense (stun), support power (current bomb arrows), and mobility (grapple).
    B900+, they are now indecently powerful at support since they can volley bunker busting bomb arrows like it was not a big deal. They are a lot more powerful that kegs because of that, and how they can get an angle anywhere. I believe that part should be toned down, or slowed down. But they also fail miserably at combat because of the advent of arrow slashing, and immense knock back that helps more than harms the enemy whenever they use overcharge. (overcharge in this case is a huge problem, also because I think it prompted the addition of arrow slashing)

    It's because of their strange distributions of immense power, and weakness that I want only some portions of the archer to be pushed back to the later b800's archers.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014