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[1239] Impracticalities of 'shotgun archer'

Discussion in 'Archer' started by Rocketlock, Sep 4, 2014.

  1. Takain

    Takain Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    44
    only if devs didnt force changes into people, is it so hard to make options for those big changes?
    every time they buff or nerf something, there sill always be someone who gets upset
    i liked knights before the nerf, i played months and months to be good, then suddently all i have worked on is lost,
    only if there was options for a server to choose
    allow builders, allow archers, allow knights, allow walljump, allow bomb jump, arrow shooting style
    i know you can create mods for it but lets be honest unless the mod is incredibly good no one is going to play on it
    then no one would be angry about the 'impractilities of shotgun arrows' or anything, because there would be servers for every taste, maybe its a little of topic, but i feel that many people wanted the game different of what it is now
     
  2. tru0067

    tru0067 Ballista Bolt Thrower Tester

    Messages:
    165
    WARNING: Another long rant/post

    Go ahead, I'm fine with that

    I understand that this is how it is NOW, what I'm saying is that this is not how it SHOULD be. Archers longest charged shot should be good at LONG RANGE, with a side use as a shield breaker. Not as a point blank killing machine, with little long range use.

    I agree, the old build was very balanced, although block repair should stay (with some tweaks). Also making the shotguns side shots disappear will just make it useless at range, and only useful in close. This will make it impossible for archers to kill enemies at range, as they will always put their shield up or find cover before you can kill them with single shots. I just don't understand why the ARCHER has no good killing options at long range, and is being given an amazing one at point blank. Seriously, shotgun is almost as good as double slash against shields.

    This is another big problem in my opinion. Popping in and out of doors currently entails very little risk, due to the instantaneous nature of the shotgun. Before an archer in the flats could put a well timed and well aimed triple shot towards a door and kill the archer that was firing their own triple shot. Now he can neither kill them at range, unless with single shots (which is silly), and is unlikely to get a hit in because the archer will pop out for less than a second before they will pop back in after firing their shotgun.

    My real problem is that the archers best shot sucks at range, and is op in cqc.
     
  3. NinjaCell

    NinjaCell Haxor

    Messages:
    358
    Why should there be a best shot and a worst shot? Long charge time only matters a lot in CQC but at a distance single shots will be better.

    How can you not kill at range? Singles were always better at ranged than legolas anyway.
     
  4. tru0067

    tru0067 Ballista Bolt Thrower Tester

    Messages:
    165
    IMO the shot that takes the longest to charge should be the best. Double slash kills any enemy without healing items and also provides a way to break shields, while slash only insta kills archers. Legolas shot kills any enemy except a full health knight and single shot does 1 heart of damage. Both have their place but the one that charges longer is the best. I'm not talking about dps or accuracy, I'm talking about the amount of damage within a short time. A full legolas shot would devastate any single enemy, while single shots slowly whittle them down. Both have their place and are useful in different circumstances.

    Old legolas shot was good at mid to long range, you could fire a shot over a wall and the falling arrows would quickly kill archers or builders who are on the far side of the wall. With single shots you would get 1 to 2 arrows in before the ran away or took cover, and archers would run away even faster. The 'burst' nature of it meant that you could surprise enemies who were unprotected, killing them before they had a chance to run away. By the time you fire a third single shot at a builder I doubt that he would still be standing in the same place, they would always have by that point begun taking preventative measures. Which was why legolas shot was good at range. They had an ability to kill in a short period of time. The new shotgun can't do more than 1 heart at long range, so now archer has no quick kill options at the range they are supposed to be deadly at.
     
    neil58, Kotobukiya and Rocketlock like this.
  5. Kotobukiya

    Kotobukiya Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    25
    I have to agree with you. I also used the legolas sky shot as a combo with normal or legolas shots. Shooting into the sky and baiting knights to shield up while u legolas shot them in the face was an option previously. Archers could also legolas shot into the sky and bait the knight into shielding against their low charge arrows and damage them with those sky shots.

    As for CQC, Shotgun shots are high risk high return. 3 arrows go out at once and if you miss, its over for a close range archer if you cant grapple away in time. For legolas shots, at least one, if not 2 will hit and stun the knight, dealing stun and even damage. Stomp charge shot archers are not so viable now since previously, the first shot would stun, while you stomped and dealt 2 hearts of damage through 2 arrows. If the knight did not shield it was insta death. Now with shotgun, without the first shot to stun the knight and hold him in place, he can easily dodge the shotgun or even intercept it before you shoot since there is no ability for initial stun.

    Overall Legolas provided so much potential. So many strategies. One could juke around firing different arced shots to 1,2,3 and enemy while he ran in a straight line. One could sky shot and combo with another legolas to pepper a knight with 6 arrows. Even if you missed and died there was still a chance the sky shots would come back and bite the knight in the ass. One could even go mano-a-mano with a knight, baiting him and then unleashing a 1,2,3 that sent him flying back.

    The shotgun on the other hand, is easy to use. Easy to master. Yet the potential is so limited. Just run in, time the shot and let loose on a knight.


    IMO, shotgun is just so sad. It limits the archer's repertoire to a simple close range pewpew sorta tactic. The old legolas was a thing of beauty and finesse. When used right it was deadly and in the wrong hands, it was and forever will be useless.
     
  6. ShnitzelKiller

    ShnitzelKiller Haxor

    Messages:
    590
    on a flatmap server with no bombs, it is nearly impossible to win against an archer unless he fucks up the following routine: back away with grapple, charge his blast shot, penetrate knight's shield, back away, rinse and repeat until knight is dead. So archers have a single attack that does damage through the shield at close range, while knights have to rely on combos at close range against other knights. All iterations of knight combat have been balanced so that a skilled player can avoid damage through a combination of movement and shielding. The devs are clearly aware of what it takes to make close combat skill-based, so it seems like these changes are concessions to some vocal groups within the community, like these degenerate archers who claim to be too vulnerable at close range (no fucking shit) and request endless buffs because their putrid minigame is too challenging.
     
  7. Well personally I thought the sequenced legions shot was fitting for long range, I don't know about Archers being a ranged class having a charge up attack for close ranged
     
  8. tru0067

    tru0067 Ballista Bolt Thrower Tester

    Messages:
    165
    Archers need a shield perpetrator of some sort, but not an insanely op one like the shotgun.
     
    Dargona1018 likes this.
  9. NinjaCell

    NinjaCell Haxor

    Messages:
    358
    Shotgun sucks for an archer too because if you screw up once you're dead. Obviously archer was tough before, but your main attack didn't require you to stay entirely in the knight's slashing range.

    With a knight, you can do well generally and make a few mistakes. With an archer, you play decently and get an extremely good score in a short period of time and then you make one slip and you get owned. Even you do really well, you can't hang around to hold ground.

    To play as an archer you have to dodge and use the landscape to your advantage. Giving a agility class the highest offense is pretty ridiculous. Knights are still longer-lasting and get better K/D. It's not really just about the fact that archers can easily kill knights. It's what that does to the game. Even an amazing knight will get hit by an arrow once, but now it will cost him so much. Archer aren't dominating the game like you guys are making out. It's still all about the knights. But now archers do tons of damage for no effort but still die.

    Archers aren't invincible, it just costs too much to kill one, even if they suck. So the best a knight can hope for is that an archer doesn't have a shotgun primed. The best an archer can hope for is that they will do three hearts of damage before they die. It sucks for both sides.
     
  10. Dargona1018

    Dargona1018 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    569
    I think that Geti now knows that most of the members really dislike the shotgun, including ones that have a large voice in the community. I really hope that he chooses to change it back so I can finally play Archer and feel badass again. :bow::B)::flex:
     
    NinjaCell likes this.
  11. NinjaCell

    NinjaCell Haxor

    Messages:
    358
    Yeah, shotgun was okay to begin with until the novelty wore off.
     
    Dargona1018 likes this.
  12. dayleaf

    dayleaf Haxor
    1. The Thieves Guild

    Messages:
    255
    *feels intrigated by archer class* -*goes to the wiki * - *archer class* - *reads* - "type: ranged" *laugh to death* , its more a CQC than a really ranged class now. bassically that, i play archer a lot but i dont like the shotgun, i prefer my 8 blocks stunning legolas shot than a 4 blocks stunning shotgun, TDMs are like this now: both have a cover, both charge the shotgun, the one who shoot faster wins (when they are close) done. please , i want my legolas back! D:
     
  13. Verzuvius

    Verzuvius Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    545
    I barely use shotgun...
     
  14. tru0067

    tru0067 Ballista Bolt Thrower Tester

    Messages:
    165
    This is part of the problem. It is only good for cqc, which is not where an archer should be good. Archer's longest charge attack should be good at the range at which an archer should be good at.
     
    NinjaCell, Dargona1018 and dayleaf like this.
  15. DatNobby

    DatNobby Bison Rider

    Messages:
    157
    apparently i am the only human being to somewhat like the new charge shot
     
    Blue_Tiger likes this.
  16. Horse_That_Goes_Ni

    Horse_That_Goes_Ni Your favorite Persian Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    233
    Here's the deal. Knights were supposed to be better in close combat. As a plus, they have to buy bombs to have a chance at long range. (If they're good) But this new legolas changes everything. I shouldn't have to run away like a little bitch when an archer is in front of me. Now i do because all I see is archers spamming the legolas so there you go, three hearts gone already(If you have full health). To be honest I think the old legolas was a lot more balanced than this.
     
    Dargona1018 likes this.
  17. Nighthawk

    Nighthawk gaurenteed shitter

    Messages:
    793
    I honestly fail to see how the change from Legolas to Shotgun made Archers suddenly overpowered in your eyes. Compared to Legolas, Shotgun is equally effective at CQC (if not less) and less effective at a range. Not only that, but Archers also got their stun range nerfed. How exactly can you claim that they've become more powerful?

    I would also like to see Archers become more powerful at a long range, but that either means bringing back long-range stun (which everyone would hate and which I agree was insanely OP) or giving them some kind of sniping ability, but I really don't think that would work (and would undoubtedly be hated by Knights on the receiving end of it).

    It seems like no matter what you do, people will always complain about Archers. I'm starting to think posting on threads like these is pointless.
     
    Blue_Tiger likes this.
  18. tru0067

    tru0067 Ballista Bolt Thrower Tester

    Messages:
    165
    They have become more powerful in cqc for three reasons:

    First, the shotgun is instantaneous, meaning that all three shots can be fired at the same time, reducing the time in which an archer is vulnerable. This means the archer can fire the shotgun and then runaway more quickly then he could do with legolas. This is big problem when they are popping in and out of doors, as they are barely exposed for any duration at all. It also reduces the consequence of missing, as an archer can runaway the moment they fire their shot. The instantaneous nature of the shotgun also makes it too easy to hit a moving knight with all three shots.

    Second, it always hits a single knight at cqc. This means that the knight at the front of a group always gets all the damage. Before the first shot would push the front knight back, thus the second shot hit the second knight. This meant that a single archer found it hard to damage large groups that were shielding, putting power with groups, but not making them invincible. This meant that knights were promoted to use teamwork to shield each other, and archer relied on their teammates to creating openings for them to damage the enemy through. Now, no one in the group approaches, because if they are at the front they will get hit. This allows archers to halt groups simply because of the threat of a shotgun. This is what is making archers op in cqc, the point that you can't get into cqc. A knight can only kill an archer when they are at close range, however knights can no longer do so because they can not get close enough, as when they do approach, they get a shotgun in the face, which will always stun them long enough for an archer to use their insane mobility to grapple away.

    Third, it takes no skill. Charge, fire. Gone away is the aiming business. With legolas, you had to equate the knockback of your shot, to where the knight would end up, to where you were firing the next few shots. This made skillful archers good, and not-so-skillful ones not-so-good. Now, a bad archer is just as good as a good archer because all any of them have to do is wait till you get close and fire. There is no longer any difference between skillful archers and non skillful archers in cqc, which is what is really op. A good player is supposed to be valuable, but now they are just as good a bad player. This means that archers are too good in cqc not only because they are op, but because it does not take skill to be op. This creates too much attraction for new players to play as archer, leading to groups of new players, who are unassailable because there is no longer a learning curve. A group of new players is now just as good as a group of good players, when they are archers, which is op.
     
    zerd, NinjaCell, Klokinator and 4 others like this.
  19. Dargona1018

    Dargona1018 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    569
    That is the best way that I have seen anyone speak about this archer business.
     
  20. Nighthawk

    Nighthawk gaurenteed shitter

    Messages:
    793
    I agree with everything except the fact that you said it takes no skill. It still takes skill to place a shotgun shot correctly, and it's still a risk, considering how close you're getting to a Knight. Saying it "takes no skill" is an insult to every player who still uses Archer as a class.

    Like I said, though, all of your other points make perfect sense. I would say you have me convinced, except for one thing:
    The reason Archers were given the shotgun was not so much a response to "triple shot OP" as it was a response to every single Archer constantly spamming triple shots from any distance as if it was their only option. Seeing this happening in most matches made Geti want to change things. So he introduced a new triple shot that was quite clearly less effective from a long distance, in the hopes that Archers firing from further away would stop being idiots and actually aim their shots. He even removed their ability to be spammed into the air to further emphasize the point that Archers should be firing regular shots from long distance.

    Take away the change, and you get a lot of pubs once again sitting on top of towers spamming triple shots and not being nearly as helpful as they could be, which results in the infamous "More Knights = win the match."

    In the end the form the ubercharge shot takes draws the line between better difficulty curve and user-friendliness.
     
    NinjaCell likes this.