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[265] Knight Discussion

Discussion in 'Knight' started by Eggnogg, Jan 4, 2012.

  1. Eggnogg

    Eggnogg Ye Olde Wench Donator Tester

    Messages:
    417
    This is what the shielding span for knight feels like at the moment:
    [​IMG]
    If someone is sitting on my head, I should be able to poke them in the bum >_>

    I've blown my specifications of stuff that's wrong with knights way out of proportion. The mechanics as they stand should be fine, except for the clash (which I think is a good addition but should certainly be fixed). The biggest problems are simply the way shields work, and stuns. Stuns are fine, so long as they don't stack. I find that the biggest reason for my deaths as knight is because of stuns stacking, and stun pinball. Make all stuns last half a second or whatever it's supposed to be, and add a 1 second cooldown after that (meaning one cannot get stunned again until that second has passed).

    [EDIT] (as of build 263, but still relevant to this post)
    I've spent a lot more time with the single player swordfight to get a better feel as to how combat works/should work, etc.

    First off: the nature of vertical and sloped combat
    I've settled on what I think is the stationary slash range for knights:
    [​IMG]
    The orange ring around the enemy knight is his attacking range, and the highlighted area is the angle at which his slash would be effective (that is, where his attack would make me drop my shield). The un-highlighted portion of the ring is where his attack could potentially land, but would not cause me to drop my shield. I have come to this conclusion because the exact scenario pictured has happened many times.

    Please understand that I'm still unsure whether my theory is correct, as it is hard to identify because that radius will dynamically change depending on the enemy's velocity and direction of momentum.

    Secondly: addressing an issue to do with slashes being ineffective
    This is a problem that I'm sure everyone of us has encountered; a situation in which an enemy knight is to your left or right, one block below you and their shield is unable to be broken, or the damaging effect of the double slash is not felt.
    Here is a picture of me holding my shield in the direction of an enemy knight:
    [​IMG]
    The highlighted areas of the ring are what I have found to be areas of immunity. If the player receives a charged slash to these areas, one of two things will happen: their shield will not be broken at all (the "tink" sound will be played, but the slash will have no effect), or their shield will be broken and they will be stunned, but if they receive the second slash from the enemy it will have no effect. The Former of these effects will generally only happen when the shielding player is facing to the right, and the former: when the player is facing to the left. This is because of KAG's strange left-right disposition for fiddly gameplay mechanics (such as spike orientation, initial catapult direction, etc).

    That said, slashes against a shielding enemy are most effective when executed on flat ground, or essentially slashing 'upwards' onto the enemy, striking underneath their immunity spot. As opposed to that, slashes can be super effective if executed by attacking downwards onto the shielding enemy. The reason this kind of slash is so powerful is because as the player slashes onto the enemy, their attack will break the enemy's shield before the player lands on their head (see my first point and screenshot). This will result in the attacking player breaking the enemy's shield, thus making them vulnerable to the imminent damage from the player landing on their head, as well as the stun, which stacks with the stun received from the slash. Finally, the attacking player will likely be able to pull off a second slash immediately after, possibly killing the enemy in a single move.

    Once again, this is simply how I think these mechanics work, as tracking their characteristics is quite difficult to do because of how dynamic swordplay actually is.

    Some other discoveries
    I don't think these are new as of build 263.

    -If an enemy jabs you whilst you are half-way through charging (that is, when your sword is held behind you), you will be stunned and knocked back (although the knockback doesn't feel as big as that of slashes and shield bashes).
    -If you are stunned, and knocked back into a wall (typically happens because of slashes or high velocity shield bashes), it is likely that you will also take half a heart of damage from the collision with the wall, because as of a few builds ago, moving into a wall at a certain velocity whilst in a stunned stack will cause you to get hurt (this can be seen when you are falling to your death, and you try to wall slide, but bounce off and die).
    -Sneaking in a jab on your enemy when he is charging or jabbing seems to be most effective at the very beginning of their attack. This means with even the slightest lag, anticipating when to counter attack your enemy with a jab is very difficult.
     
    Noburu, Monsteri and Neat like this.
  2. Neat

    Neat King of the Dead Donator Tester

    Messages:
    1,958
    Yes, stun stacking, god how I hate the stun stacking. Stunned from fall, stunned from charge attack, then blown up as you have no chance to move. People make mistakes but you shouldn't be penalised by them in such a horrible way.
     
    Monsteri likes this.
  3. Eggnogg

    Eggnogg Ye Olde Wench Donator Tester

    Messages:
    417
    Also shield bashes are too strong. The knockback should be shorter, and without stun.
     
    Noburu and Neat like this.
  4. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

    Messages:
    2,196
    Shield bashing is the only thing we have against people on high ground. Shorter knockback alone would be a buff, but shorter knockback and no stun would make it near worthless. I think it could use more standardization, ie. make the larges bashes smaller and the smallest larger, but it already is struggling in its very vital role.
     
  5. Wyeth

    Wyeth KAG Guard Donator Tester

    Messages:
    375
    This log is only posted for reference.
    This is not meant to restrict the discussion only to the contents of the log.
    Code:
    Changes 228-262:
    
    - Changed workshop building to an UPGRADE MECHANISM using USE KEY [E].
    
    - new Swordfight map
    
    - fixed some collision bugs
    
    - fixed tents spawning underground
    
    - map format changed to .KAG
    
    - \loadmap \savemap - loads\saves .KAG files
    
    - \loadbitmap NAME - loads PNG map format from Maps/
    
    - packet compression is back on
    
    - arrows stick to bodies
    
    - fixed rules time counter and display
    
    - changed to larger font for catapult health and blocks menu resources display
    
    - builder rectangle cursor doesn't appear if not buildable and not diggable
    
    - fixed ping times in server browser
    
    - fixed favorites in server browser
    
    - fixed server browser password prompt display
    
    - fixed sort types list box
    
    - fixed most bottom blocks on map indestructible bug
    
    - added speedhack detection and prevention
    
    - units are decreased on spawn not death
    
    - Mac: fixed ingame web browser
    
    - Mac: fixed screen options not saving
    
    - Mac: changed team chat switch to Ctrl
    
    - Mac: improve graphic performance on
    
    - Mac: fixed game crashing when window larger than desktop
    
    - fixed authentication mix up when two players from same host connect
    
    - improved network code - slightly lower pings
    
    - added server check for knight slashing
    
    - slash takes 5% longer
    
    - sv_compression variable works again
    
    - fixed throw sound being played if trying to drop materials during warmup
    
    - fixed client crash on map restart
    
    - fixed trying to connect to full server
    
    - units aren't decreased in build time
    
    - added \nextmap command (\restartmap works as it should now)
    
    - Mac: fixed clipboard pasting Cmd+V
    
    - Mac: fixed mouse button / shield problem
    
    - fixed head config hack
    
    - fixed bomb killing teammates
    
    - improved offscreen objects netcode
    
    - autoupdate can be canceled with ESC
    
    - new linux dedicated executable works w/o batch file "./KAGdedi"
    
    Changes 262-263:
    
    - fixed kick and swap menus not scrolling
    
    - arrows don’t stick to shields
    
    - fixed unpredictable bomb throwing on high ping
    
    - fixed unit_count=0 in gamemode.cfg (one life for all)
    
    - fixed warmup counter display
    
    - fixed quarters not healing if something in front of it
    
    Changes 265:
    
    - fixed native resolution in fullscreen broken
    
    - fixed map collisions (not climbing, corner jumping etc.)
    
    - chat console is disabled if no players
    
    - unit counters changed to minimalistic numbers
    
    - chat moved to top
    
    - gamemode descriptions support line break (new CTF description)
    
    - chat box position, transparency improvements
    
    - chat box only displays under 140 chars
    
    - fixed help texts not appearing during build time
    
    - fixed not being able to build sometimes at some spots
    
    - fixed buying bomb by spamming with left over coins
    
    - fixed massive gold appearing under tent in older generator scripts
    
    - fixed hole in map generator causing tower
    
    - added flat map with hole in middle to deafult map cycle
    
    - fixed 2 players from the same IP being authenticated wrong on master server
    
    - Mac: fixed space appearing after pressing shift in chat
    
     
  6. Eggnogg

    Eggnogg Ye Olde Wench Donator Tester

    Messages:
    417
    I have added to my above post with a lot of new discoveries. Sorry if it's not completely coherent; it's late here and I need to sleep.
     
  7. Neat

    Neat King of the Dead Donator Tester

    Messages:
    1,958
    To add to that, to make it clear: jabbing when the second half of a charge is being executed is generally ineffective. Rarely does the jab ever stop the charge let alone cause damage, as if this part of the charge is immune to a jab. Personally I think unless the knight is actually carrying out the slash right when you jab, any jab should be able to break the charge up. This might be to do with lag, but I doubt it, as i've tried to jab players with good ping and also what looked like right after they started charging to no effect, so cancelling their charge was impossible.
     
  8. Eggnogg

    Eggnogg Ye Olde Wench Donator Tester

    Messages:
    417
    Yes I experience that also.
     
  9. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    12
    i'm pretty new to the game but i like the clash. trying to jab spam works sometimes in a 1v1, but if there's a lot going on it means that you aren't using your shield which means you are vulnerable to bombs, arrows, random slashes, and anything else that could be going on.

    the only issue i have is that when i am intentionally jab spamming against someone who is also jab spamming it seems like both of us will randomly get damaged with no rhyme or reason. i figure that the expected behavior is that we should both essentially be able to clash infinitely until one of us does something different. this is probably lag related.
     
  10. Ghozt

    Ghozt Haxor

    Messages:
    1,083
    I have something about bomb jumping so...
    I haven't ever seen this type of bomb jump and made it up today in an edited version of sandbox and this is what I do.
    Step 1- Hold bomb and have cursor pointing up and so you can see the countdown.
    Step 2- When the countdown says 7-10 jump and throw the bomb up and put your shield up.
    (explanation I think that when you jump the strings of explosions at 90 degrees catches on your shield)
    This takes you to the same height as when you hold the bomb with the shield up, but when you throw the bomb at the ground it doesn't catapult you as high. (so try not to do those ones) This version is harder but with walls not being as tall as how high you through the bomb you could maybe get a kill if say an archer is on top I haven't tested this but if you arn't able to do this ask me.
    I call it the GHOZT JUMP with the bomb coming from under you and some person following the bomb!!!