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[866][Gen] What would/do you like on archers and what do you not like?

Discussion in 'Archer' started by Landoo2, Aug 17, 2013.

  1. Landoo2

    Landoo2 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    186
    hey guys,
    in this thred i just wanted to see what you guys like on archers and what you dont like on them,
    so my opinions are...

    i like :

    -the grafics of the body
    -the grafics of the bow and the arrows
    -that you can shoot enemys from far away
    -that you can hide
    -that you can do wallwalk

    i dont like :

    -that archers are slower in water if they load an arrow as if knights swim in water while shielding
    -that they fall off the tree if u stop holding w
    -that the knife does just 0.5 damage

    what would i like :
    -if knights couldnt swim so fast in water like archers because their armor is so heavy
    -all stabs with knife do 1.0 damage, doesnt depend from which side
    -that archers stay on a tree if you stop holding w
    -that if you hide in a bush, the enemy cant see your name if he holds his mouse on you
    -if archers could burn kegs too
    -if an archer shoots a not shielding but full slash loading knight, doesnt matter how powerfull, stops the loading attack from the attacking knight ( so if he loads a full hit ), that he cant get you
     
    EhRa, NinjaCell and Contrary like this.
  2. Kripis

    Kripis Drill Rusher

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    29
    Next time, don't use the term "wallwalk" please.
     
  3. Landoo2

    Landoo2 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    186
    ummm. why?
     
  4. Kouji

    Kouji Cold, Uncaring, Sadistic, Evil and Cruel Meanie Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. MOLEing Over Large Estates - [MOLE]
    2. REKINS OF SEAS: Super Crew of Ultimate Havoking 2: Return of King of KAG: Chapter 420blazeit - REKIN

    Messages:
    2,910
    This thread is badly written, but I'm personally interested in your guys opinion on what archer should be like. (Also the term is arrow climbing + ceiling climbing, not wall walking, just an FYI)

    Archer is the class I mainly play, but I can't say it's a good class. TBH, compared to the other classes, it's pretty lacking. Since my play style tends to be more CQC than Sniper, I'd think that making an archer more offensive rather than passively offensive would be more fun. IMO, special arrows should be taking a more passive role and focus on environmental/anti siege damage rather than direct damage. Basically I think that an archer should take a more slayer style role than passive glass cannon role. Basically make archers a class that requires way skill to use offensively, but when used offensively, it's worth it. Basically a hard to master class that's very effective when played right.

    Right now, the biggest problem with archer is that it doesn't really have a defined role, unlike Knights and Builders. Knights clearly are meant to go forward and take land with offensive pressure. Builders clearly are meant to help knights gain offensive pressure and help them keep that pressure with buildings and supplies.
    Archers well, they have some of tools to be "infiltrators" because of wall/ceiling climbing, but they don't really do that all that well because the rest of their tools aren't really for infiltrating. They have knife for stunning, and doing some cqc, but it's pretty ineffective at that as well. They can snipe, but shield kind of only limits it to really only be basic support for other knights. Basically they can do "lots of things" but nothing they do is "good", it's just meh and mainly annoying. So what do you guys think the archer's role should be?
     
  5. Brilly

    Brilly Haxor

    Messages:
    222
    I too seek to improve the role of the archer in this game.

    It's clear that when an archer charges offensively in battle, it's very likely that that archer will take an enemy knight's blade in an assorted variety of ways, which may or may not be pleasurable for some to do.

    Perhaps by taking the dead body of the archer and using it as fuel for machinery that builders use, the archer can finally have a role beyond spamming arrows and running away like cowards.

    Their very souls.. sacrificed for the sake of glory... simply to power the machinery which keeps these mysterious halls functional.

    Is there a greater cause for these aforementioned heroes?

    I submit to you that there is not.
     
  6. Landoo2

    Landoo2 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    186
    yes, i totally agree kouji, they should be more offensive...
    and im sorry that its so badly written, im not a genious in the english language...
     
    SlyStalker likes this.
  7. Stealthkibbler

    Stealthkibbler Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    32
    Wot.

    On the subject, I don't see much to improve in archers, maybes it just me but they are meant for ranged they have a luck card for melee but very bad against knights which is meant to be. They are agile and sneaky also nimble because of their arrow climbing ability but they are meant for aggressive support I guess.
     
  8. kedram

    kedram Drill Rusher Tester

    Messages:
    449
    Well here is what i have to say on this subject. Archers are fine where they currently are. They should not be able to take on a knight alone. They should be very effective paired with other knights as a support class. Archers are not meant to go in and kill everything with their arrows and knives. They are meant to help the knights do the killing. The knife is perfectly fine where its at in terms of damage. It should deal .5 damage simply because its a knife and knights swords deal 1 damage in jabs. I suppose the whole idea of back stab makes sense, if your not paying attention you deserve a back stab in my opinion (the archer earned it). Maybe in the future there will be another class like a rogue that has a sling shot and a short sword that deals 1 damage on jab but cant slash with it. their sling shot would have a charge which went up to 2 damage fully charged but also stunned almost like water does only to unshielded enemies. they could climb things better then archer and knight because of a hook tool set they have. this should be what a cqc class is. not an archer that is only supposed to really snipe for support. they could totally take on 1 knight if they had enough skill to do so. however a knight and anyother class enemy helping and it would become very tough for the rogue to kill them all. maybe they could also use satchels too but nothing else since they would be op at that point to be able to use water or bomb.
     
    Starsly likes this.
  9. Landoo2

    Landoo2 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    186
    aha, ok keram. but wouldnt it be boring if you help a knight killing and he steals all the kills? i wouldnt help him so, i would hide in a bush or so and surprise the enemy. i think guys wouldnt go archer to help others, i think they just wanna show what they can and not just helping some teammates killing some enemys...
     
  10. kedram

    kedram Drill Rusher Tester

    Messages:
    449
    well actually there is another dimension of this discussion i havent gotten in to yet. a good archer shouldnt have a problem taking on new knight or a damaged knight. if he has 1 or 2 hearts it should be easy to kill him (granted he doesnt have bombs) the rogue class i mentioned is so you can still have that archer feel but with more mobility and to actually be a melee threat. ammo for the sling shot would be like 5 stone or something.
     
    Nighthawk likes this.
  11. Nighthawk

    Nighthawk gaurenteed shitter

    Messages:
    793
    Archers are becoming more and more balanced with each update. At this point, they can hold their own against a Knight given some decent terrain, and can be a real threat in advantageous positions, like a high tower, of course.

    The knife is meant for backstabbing, and does plenty of damage when you use it for that purpose. I don't necessary like the delay on the knife, because if you manage to surprise someone, odds are that they won't be standing still, making the knife somewhat useless for its greatest purpose. I believe archers should move ever-so-slightly faster than the other classes to make up for this, or be able to instantly knife from a crouching/playing dead position.

    As far as the purpose of archers, I agree wholeheartedly with kedram.

    This is absolutely true, and everything about them just screams support class:
    - They're squishy (they have less health than Knights and die easily in general, what with having no shield and such)
    - They are primarily RANGED attackers
    - Their attacks can easily be blocked, making them most effective while their friendlies are distracting the enemy Knights
    - Their special arrows are very technical and useful in particular situations; fire arrows and bomb arrows can cause tremendous damage, but only when used in certain places
    - Their distinctive climbing abilities allow them to mount enemy towers, which is ironically the place where they are safest, and most effective

    The list goes on. Archers are where they need to be, though, as a shameless Archer-obsessed player, I would like some buffs... like being able to fall at least as far as Knights can with their parachutes. Still, I think that they're very well balanced as-is.

    Oh, and if you're one of those Knight players who complains that Archers are OP because you keep getting ninja'd by them or something, there is a foolproof method of killing an Archer.

    Step 1: Have a bomb.
    Step 2: Keep your shield up, negating all arrows.
    Step 3: Get close to the Archer, but DO NOT DROP YOUR SHIELD.
    Step 4: Light the bomb.
    Step 5: Throw it just as it's about to explode, right into the archer's face. They stand no chance.

    I play as Archer mainly, and am commonly killed via this method... but even I can't disagree with this situation's one-sided-ness. Archers are not supposed to be able to handle a well-equipped Knight in melee combat by themselves, as many have said. With skill, they might take out an inexperienced or unfocused Knight by themselves, but definitely not a veteran fighter, and that's how it should be.
     
  12. Landoo2

    Landoo2 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    186
    thats sounds realy logic to me, but i dont really agree you... maybe im just a ''solo archer'' i like to fight alone, your instruction with step 1 to 5 is nice but.... if there are some trees, you can do some nice tricks like i always do and then the knight throws the bomb in the false direction ... or for example if they try to hit you, just always run from them away and shoot them when they are not shielding/hitting. my strategies and clues as archer are :
    -hiding
    -running!
    -attack enemys from range and if they come nearer, you just have to go away from them
    -bombarrows >:3
    -waterarrows to make the enemy dizzy and to give you some seconds to jump over him and run to his base
    -never try to stab, you wont have a chance against a knight, always stay in range!

    these are some of my tricks...
    its very sad that this old trick doesnt work anymore when you jumped from a tree on a shielding knight, that he cant shield anymore for 2 seconds and through the fall damage, you automaticly shot the arrow and damaged him...
     
  13. LostPix

    LostPix Base Burner

    Messages:
    574
    Archers in group tend to be incredibly annoying, you shield from one archer while another one shoots arrows at your butt, but I like to think of them as kind of what medic is to heavy in tf2, archers help knights, knights help archers.
    What if archers or knights could deploy smoke bombs/arrows to cover their retreat for short duration, this would benefit team in some cases, I don't think people would even spam them.
     
  14. Ratka

    Ratka Shipwright

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    158
    The grappling hook... oh god why. Why would they torture the poor knights? "Oh hey there's an archer- oh he just grappled to higher ground now... oh hey there is another one- oh he just grappled up that wall and is killing our builders. Oh look, he just grappled over all the traps and is now spamming arrows down on the knights!"
     
  15. Raelian

    Raelian Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    232
    The archer has been my favorite class in KAG Alpha but since Beta I've stopped playing as one since Knights seem to be much more fun to play and while the archer received a nice bag of tricks of his own, as it has been mentioned before, they don't really help that much except for some very specific situations.

    Ex: Shoot fire arrows over the enemy's tower so it lands on their unprotected factories, surprise a knight with a well placed bomb arrow or shoot catapult pilot if the knights can't reach him.

    With the new grappling hook added for archers, I can already see the possibility of archers being able to sneak past enemies and capture a hall, which will prove quite useful! Sadly, the whole "infiltrator" role is lacking some serious tools.

    I would advice the following changes for the archer:

    Eagle eye (Extended zoom-out) - I know, I know, this was the bane of many knights back in alpha when archers could snipe almost a screen away but now that the arrow range has dropped considerably this would be mostly useless. Or is it? The main problem with archers trying to 'hide' is that enemies have the same sight range as archers, unless they moved the camera at the edge of the screen but then the enemy could do the same. By giving archers (and only archers) an extended zoom when standing still (can't walk or run) they can spot enemies coming their way and properly hide before they end up in the enemies sight. This would help with the whole infiltration aspect greatly.

    Tree grappling and ambushing - With the new grappling hook, archers can grapple to walls, ceiling and trees! A nifty skill for traversing over walls but what if we could also use it to hide the archer? I'm not sure if this has already been implemented with the new grappling hook but I'll suggest it either way. Why not use the grappling hook to grapple a tree, pull yourself up and hide there for an undetermined amount of time, similar to the old archer climbing ability in alpha. The archer could still shoot arrows but charging the arrows would take a bit more time, while going up and down the tree would also be slower so the archer can't just climb up and down in hopes of dodging arrows. This skill would be used to set up an ambush and not as a camping spot.

    Hot keys for special arrows - Not exactly a class feature but I would love to have the option of switching arrow types simply by pressing a button (for example 1,2,3,4) instead of using the more clunky F key to scroll through them all until I reach the one I need. Mostly since it takes a bit more time if you have different types of arrows and in a game such as KAG even an extra second could make a difference when a knight is charging towards you.

    Oil pouch - I love how a single fire arrow can light up the grass and create a nice little fire wall that the enemy has to put out(or wait to die off). A shame that grass grows back so slowly, reason why I suggest adding an oil pouch; once used, the archer pours some oil on the ground (wide enough so people can't jump over it without help) and it stays there for 5 minutes or until the archer shoots a fire arrow at it. Once ignited, the area engulfed in oil will burn for 20-30 seconds, offering the possibility of a really nasty trap if used on a tight group from atop a tree. Bonus points if people slip and get stunned for a second when landing on the oil covered surface. A bucket of water could wash away the oil so enemies have a way of removing it.

    Ladder knockdown - I think it might help an archer suppress the enemy if their charged shots knock down shielding knights off their ladders. This way, an archer that managed to climb an enemy tower and reach the top, could hold off one knight or builder with a well placed charged shot, making the builder/knight fall down and buying more time for the archer's builder friend to make ladders for the knights on the other side. This way, an archer could hold off a bit longer against a knight (depending on the tower's design) but 3-4 would easily swarm him.

    Sadly my ideas end here and for the record, really glad the knife got removed in favor of the grappling hook. Mind you! I loved the idea of a backstabbing archer but it was mostly useless, even after managing to pull a flashy back jump and stab over a knight, the second time you tried that, a smart knight would expect it. I'd love to see the archer focus entirely on range, ambushing, mobility and maybe traps (simple versions like the oil pouch + fire arrow combo).
     
    NinjaCell and Landoo2 like this.
  16. Landoo2

    Landoo2 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    186
    Hot keys for special arrows - Not exactly a class feature but I would love to have the option of switching arrow types simply by pressing a button (for example 1,2,3,4) instead of using the more clunky F key to scroll through them all until I reach the one I need. Mostly since it takes a bit more time if you have different types of arrows and in a game such as KAG even an extra second could make a difference when a knight is charging towards you.

    Oil pouch - I love how a single fire arrow can light up the grass and create a nice little fire wall that the enemy has to put out(or wait to die off). A shame that grass grows back so slowly, reason why I suggest adding an oil pouch; once used, the archer pours some oil on the ground (wide enough so people can't jump over it without help) and it stays there for 5 minutes or until the archer shoots a fire arrow at it. Once ignited, the area engulfed in oil will burn for 20-30 seconds, offering the possibility of a really nasty trap if used on a tight group from atop a tree. Bonus points if people slip and get stunned for a second when landing on the oil covered surface. A bucket of water could wash away the oil so enemies have a way of removing it.

    Ladder knockdown - I think it might help an archer suppress the enemy if their charged shots knock down shielding knights off their ladders. This way, an archer that managed to climb an enemy tower and reach the top, could hold off one knight or builder with a well placed charged shot, making the builder/knight fall down and buying more time for the archer's builder friend to make ladders for the knights on the other side. This way, an archer could hold off a bit longer against a knight (depending on the tower's design) but 3-4 would easily swarm him.


    OMG these are so cool ideas : D im sure the devs will like them too, i have to problem with pressing f and choosing the right arrows too :) , thats a great idea, and oil punch >:3 ohh yea, i really can imagine how there is a lil sea of oil, some enemys want to run over it fast and then i take a fire arrow out of my bag : D, that would be so fucking awesome. the ladderknockdown is cool too, like it was in alpha.
    i really like your ideas realian : )
     
  17. LostPix

    LostPix Base Burner

    Messages:
    574
    Maybe only archers should have the farthest zoom out ability while knights just normal one and close one.
     
    NinjaCell and Raelian like this.
  18. Raelian

    Raelian Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    232
    Crazy idea my mind managed to come up with a few minutes ago:

    Grappling hook attack - by tossing the grappling hook at a tree, wall, ceiling, the hook grapples on, allowing the archer to climb up or remain suspended in mid air. But what would happen if we use the hook on an enemy or a catapult? I can see endless possibilities with such an option, depending on the strength of the grappling hook; prevent an enemy from running away or even using gravity by grappling a foe then jumping over the edge of the tower during your escape, at the same time dragging along with you, the helpless foe.

    Mind you, I'm not thinking of some MK Scorpion "Get over here!" type hook attack that automatically drags a helpless builder towards you and within range of your knight buddies, that's just OP. But a more realistic one that latches on to a foe and starts a "tug-of-war" type scenario (if you stay still you get dragged, if you run opposet of your foe, you both run but remain in place) could help keep a builder or knight in place long enough for your buddies to reach you and swarm him. Gravity could play an interesting role in this since I imagine an archer that tries to escape by jumping off a wall could also grapple an enemy and jump, letting gravity do it's job as you watch your archer (along with the red knight) land among-st your waiting buddies down below.

    Grappling a boat or catapult also sounds nice. Depending on the length of the rope, archers could grapple a cata and try to pull it off a ledge, making it useless. Of course, one skinny archer could barely drag it, having multiple archers pull at the catapult/boat would drag it faster while a cata/boat/ballista that has it's driver run the opposet way might end up dragging the poor archers if they don't let go. Now imagine the same catapult/ballista, dragging the archers through a nice oil + fire arrow trap. Fun times! ^^
     
  19. Landoo2

    Landoo2 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    186
    yea ok,... you said somewhere that the grappling hook will replace the knife.... , really? . or will it just have another hotkey?
     
  20. GreenRock

    GreenRock Base Burner

    Messages:
    347
    In complete agreement. If the infiltrator is the route the archer will take, then they're going to need tools to fulfill that role.

    Water arrows aren't necessary to this role. Solution: Small water bombs that can only be thrown down, and unlike the knights, have no timer; they're used instantaneously. It'd give them a tactical advantage around trees. They can lie in wait in a tree and use the bomb to stun knights long enough to get a good jab in, or use it when they're surrounded to make a quick getaway.

    The flash that the water bomb provides also gave me an idea a while back. It'd be cool if archers could change into an enemy knight in that short flash. They'd be easy to spot too, since knights neither have access to grapple hooks nor the ability to climb trees. And the archer keeps doing this, hiding in trees, letting the disguise meter recharge, water stunning knights, grappling over walls, until the archer is deep inside the enemy base. And the enemy is frantically hunting down this archer in their own base. Would be p fun. Takes a certain degree of skill to stay hidden that long.