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[866][Gen] What would/do you like on archers and what do you not like?

Discussion in 'Archer' started by Landoo2, Aug 17, 2013.

  1. Ratka

    Ratka Shipwright

    Messages:
    158
    While the idea is fun, I don't play archer and this kind of thing would hinder knights/builders/movable weapons quite a bit. I don't think they should be able to latch on to siege weapons, but I am fine with builders and knights so long as they have more force than an archer. Example, some skinny little archer latches onto this muscular knight in heavy armor, that archer is not going anywhere. The skinny archer gets some buddies, who latch on to this poor knight and hang him from the rafters after turning him into a bloody pincushion. This kind of thing is fine, but not one archer negating all the force a knight puts into running away. Hell, here is a perfect use for rope actually, allowing archers to attach something to an object/block after grappling it. Of course, there would have to be some mechanic of the rope snapping when enough force is applied/it is hit enough, or else archers will just do a drive-by grapple and attach to stop a team of knights from getting anywhere.
     
  2. Raelian

    Raelian Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    232

    From what I read in the news and on twitter, yeah. The knife is being replaced with the grappling hook so it should be the right mouse button.
     
  3. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    As it turns out, there is no grappling moving objects [ie people].
    And it seems pretty useless, and redundant, from what Contrary puts it. [Simply redundant in the case of Geti]

    I continue to vie for a vaulting staff. It is less redundant with arrow climbing.
    The staff can soften landings, and adds jump control to the archer in addition to jump power, just don't expect it to allow you to climb walls, it's pretty much a force that opposes against a colliding surface with respect to the archer's velocity.
    [ie you use it to help propel yourself along, or away from things]
    [POST SCRIPT :: it is more or less a quarterstaff that archers can use like a pole vaulter's staff]

    That sound better?
    I guess the key note here is that it is harder to simply spam it, and instantly magic up walls, or magic around like knights with slashing, and scootering around on their shield. [I can accept bomb jumping though]

    I don't know what it'd do damage-wise, but as far as anyone can toss it, I guess it'd dependent on the velocity of the archer, or half a heart.
     
    Kouji and Contrary like this.
  4. Tylda

    Tylda Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    46
    I hate when archer didnt pull bow enought strong, but arrow can still kill me :(
     
  5. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    Well, there's not much an archer do when they are directly under threat of death, or at a long range [arrows happen to slow down over a distance].
    Either shoot faster [and weaker], or let someone on their team die [including themselves].

    It's not like we can use our knives for anything, use bombs, or use a sword.. You, however have a shield, and can block multiple, and consecutive explosions.
     
    Tylda and Kouji like this.
  6. Technature

    Technature Shipwright

    Messages:
    6
    I can't wait until this recent obsession with the archer and the grappling hook stops.

    It's gotten to the point that half the team will go archer during the building phase and dick around, and pretty much everyone refuses to go knight, causing a few of them to be able to overwhelm the entire team of archers.

    I wish I was exaggerating these things more than 20% of the time.
     
  7. Landoo2

    Landoo2 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    186
    yep, thats really annoying, i saw that myself and its pissing me really off , when i build the base and those guys do some crazy shit...
     
  8. Ninja12

    Ninja12 Drill Rusher

    Messages:
    223
    Personally, I thought that the knife was useless, regardless of the fact that people say it makes the archer OP. But to me, it was just a more realistic way of getting arrows.

    The grappling hook was probably one of the best and worst changes to the archer. Because of the grappler, it doesn't let you get arrows from trees anymore, but it makes the archer more ninja-like and due to the fact that it has so little health now, the grappling hook will save your life. It makes it harder to kill the archer. But I think that maybe... they could have an eagle eye, as someone above posted. Also, oil pouch and satchel and ladder-knockoff would be better. Maybe if they didn't get the oil pouch they could have the satchel back, as the keg is now a demoman rather that a swordsman. I mean, come on, a bomb, water bomb, satchel, and keg? I think some stuff should go to the archer

    Not much else to say.
     
  9. Landoo2

    Landoo2 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    186
    yep i agree that grapplin hook is a nice idea too, but what i hate now!
    that arechers have just 2 hearths! you cant do anything fun now anymore with them!
    its so boring, it just needs one full slash and your gone... its quite hard to escape such a slash with the grapple because the slasher often has a veeery long sword, and if you have just 2 hearths, the breads and so are useless because you cant heal if you get slashed, your just dead... its now much more harder to play as archer as i experienced right now... i think before this update my kd was always like 150. or 170... now its always like 50-100..... its just so hard to kill knights now because every arrow does just 1.0 damage! so you need 4 hits so kill one, as i saw the bombarrows are useless, i shot many times at a builder and the arrow just didnt stick in him, and those bugs are so fucking annoying too... knights can to walljump infinetly, they can slash through a wall etc...

    so in the end i would like to have as archer
    3 lifes!
    and old damage system with arrows!

    but the grapple stays :3
     
    Boea likes this.
  10. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    The worst thing about the grapple hook is that they destroy arrows that you painstakingly shoot into the wall for an honest to god arrow climb.

    The main problem Landoo, is the Multi Draw, the buff would make the Multi Draw have the max potential of 6h damage, and I don't think people will take that kindly to "the Multi Draw is impractical when it comes to potshots", or "stuns are still pretty freaking rare, so it's entirely blockable".

    It goes without saying, I don't much care for the Multi Draw, other than spamming special arrows, and laddering with arrows, I guess.

    Response to delete post
    Archers have no more melee.

    For Knights, you just click lmb [aka attack] without charging. You can roughly stab three times in the time to get a slash, so more or less I hope you die, if you spam jabs.

    Anyways, I'd be fine with the Multi Draw doing less damage, Landoo probably wouldn't care either.
    A compromise would be 1.5h on full, and 1.5h/shot on multi draw.
     
  11. Raelian

    Raelian Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    232
    I like the grappling hook, it's a b*tch to master but after a few sessions I started getting the hang of it and I can see the potential in such a tool. What I don't like, is the fact that archers got nerfed to 2 hearts and a charged arrow shot now does 1 heart of damage. Maybe with time pro archers might be able to overcome the low health and shit damage (although I doubt it) but honestly, I prefer the third heart back and the damage buffed back to two and that silly multi draw only do 1 heart damage. :>:(:

    At the moment, that multi draw is only efficient in taking out other archers (and builders), because let's face it, with only 2 hearts of damage you die oh so very quickly and no grappling hook will save your ass when a barrage of arrows starts falling around you. Other than that, I have to say that multi draw (or legolas shot, whatever it's called) despite it's flashy appearance and awesome potential in taking out enemy archers (and builders), still doesn't help much with killing enemy knights. It's slow to charge, does a max of 3 damage and knocks the knight back a couple of blocks and... and... that's it... really? The only way I've been able to take out a knight with that ability was when the guy got cocky, lowered his shield for a couple of moments and I managed to charge that stupid multi draw behind a tree so he didn't see me. Oh and right before that, the guy managed to hold off against 2-3 archers in our tower just by shielding. :huh?:

    *sigh* It feels like one step forward and two steps back with the archer. I understand the devs want the archer to be those classes that is hard to master but kicks ass once you got the hang of it but... seriously?! What's the point of giving the archer new toys if it's going to get nerfed every time? Actually... I'd stick with this... I really would, I'd learn to play the sh*t out of this class until I'd be the very best but that won't help at all, would it? Why?

    Archers lack the means to deal with knights. Knights... the main pushers of KAG, the back bone of the army and the only unit the archer can't do crap against unless the knights in question are a bunch of dead brained newbies that don't know how to play. That's really the only reason you can win as an archer, if the knight you're facing is worse than you, gets cocky, does a mistake or you shoot him when he's fighting another knight. :(

    Even with the bloody two hearts, shit damage and that long charging legolas shot, I think players might pull it off if... and ONLY if archers get the damn means to break through that indestructible shield knights have.

    For the love of KAG... throw archers a bone already! The shiny toys will distract them for only a little while before they realize once more how useless the class is if they have no basic means in dealing with knights. :QQ:

    Right now I have better chances of beating the ever loving crap out of a knight by throwing logs at him than shooting him as an archer. That's right, best archer weapon is the tree log! Forget shooting arrows with bows, we'll just grapple our way through he battlefield and start bludgeoning to death every knight! It will be glorious! Power to the logs!!! X3

    Fuck the archer class, I'm making my builder a gardener with a bucket of water, a drill, a log and gonna own faces. :B):
     
    NinjaCell, Boea and Sturm like this.
  12. franek123

    franek123 The architect of the royal castle. Donator Tester

    Messages:
    514
    My idea for archers is: Dmg like from la
    st build. Fuck that (gay) Legolas shot I would replace it with power shot (take 3 hearts dmg if shielded it stuns). And 3 hearts back! I'm good knight and now its too easy to kill these poor archers :C
     
  13. Landoo2

    Landoo2 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    186
    i totaly agree franek and realian, this with 2 hearths is too less,... and then this legolas doesnt bring you anything if the enemy knight is shielding... the grapple is a nice tool with which you can come through the whole map with a bit skill, but in this case, the logs are really usefuller than the arrows..
     
    Boea and franek123 like this.
  14. SlyStalker

    SlyStalker Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    423
    Machine-gun arrows totally solves everything 25252525:smug:
     
    NinjaCell and franek123 like this.
  15. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    All I can say about machine gunning is that it's become worse, to the point of ruining hit detection with the sheer server lag.
     
  16. Raelian

    Raelian Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    232
    Suggestion:

    - raise archer health from 2 hearts back to 3 hearts
    - raise charged shot damage from 1 hearts back to 2 hearts
    - make legolas shots (or multi draw, whatever it's called) only do 1 heart of damage per hit
    - give back stun stomp so we can jump on knight heads and stun them

    Right, so the reason for this idea is the following: by giving stun when performing a stomp, archers have the ability to atleast do ~something~ against a shielding knight but we need health and damage for that since a) it's a risky move and we'll need to GTFO right after performing that and b) it should atleast be worth doing therefore 2 hearts of damage on a powered shot would be nice (half a knight's HP). Legolas shot (multi draw, whatever) can be the archer's main use for when dealing with large crowds, archers, builders etc.

    Any player that was good with an archer in alpha would remember the old trick with the stomp and power charge shot to the face, one of the most useful tricks an archer had against a knight. The above is basically the same thing and I figured it might be more preferred than suggesting charged shots to stun again (like in alpha) because then we'd all see the dreaded archer filled tower once more and knight players would whine and complain.

    I think the above is more preferred in most respects since it would require some skill to pull off and if it ever gets too easy to perform or too efficient at taking out knights, the devs can easily nerf the archer.
     
    NinjaCell, Boea, Sturm and 1 other person like this.
  17. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    Besides, stuns via arrows are still freaking rare even if half the team is spamming multi draw.
     
  18. Landoo2

    Landoo2 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    186
    i totally agree realian what he posted , if his suggestgions would be made real in the next patch, the archer class is nearly finished : D
     
    NinjaCell and Boea like this.
  19. Saigon

    Saigon Builder Stabber

    Messages:
    76
    I'd personlly LOVE to see the archer class get a Crossbow - roughly it'd have the same purpose, but would be able to shoot further, a tad faster and harder.

    Crossbow:

    Pros:

    More damage.

    Further reach.

    Faster arrow (Bolt.)

    Constant 'full-charge' and no need to time it like with the bow; keep that thing up for as long as you want.

    Instant-shoot with full power if blot is loaded.

    Cons:

    Longer reload, even longer if moving. (Cancelled if the archer jumps or use his Grapple-Hook - it's meant as a defensive weapon.)

    Slower movement speed while reloading.

    Can not use 'Fire Arrows' or 'Bomb Arrows' (Would be OP with the increased range. Water Arrow can still be used though.)

    Starts with 15-20 arrows instead of 30.




    These are my ideas, but I also had a way more simple idea: (It's one thing that has been changed...(And that the reload is just a bit quicker than in my first idea) Not sure why it should be more 'simple'. I'm bad at this)

    Crossbow:

    Just slightly slower reload speed than the bow (The limitations as written above still apply.)

    Damage is always the same as a fully charged bow.

    Further reach and quicker arrow

    No Bomb or Fire Arrows

    Instant-shoot if arrow is loaded.

    (Basicly, all of the things I mentioned before still applies, but the damage not being higher than the bow's.)

    These 2 might seem the same, but my other idea here would basicly just make a weapon used for hard hitting. (Easier to hit distracted knights and other archers, as the bolt has less drop due to longer reach, quicker projectile and that you don't have to charge up. The slower reload and reload limitations is what really makes this weapon a second-thinker.)

    What do you guys think? I havn't sat down and thought of this for more than half an hour, so there might be a lot of holes in this idea. I'd love a crossbow though, if it was just a bit like this.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2013
    SlyStalker likes this.
  20. JoshTG

    JoshTG Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    236
    ^ similar idea is that a heavy bow could be implemented with alpha/classic style arrows, more damage no triple shot or bombs
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2013, Original Post Date: Oct 29, 2013 ---
    You cant just raise there health and there damage, EVEN if it happened (which it wont) it would be one or the other.