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[885][Gen] Bloody kegs

Discussion in 'Classes & Mechanics' started by One, Sep 18, 2013.

  1. One

    One I got 99 problems and my name is One Donator Tester

    Messages:
    641
    So, I just had the worst game of all my time in kag. It started off normal, until the enemy team decided they would make 10 demolition shops, and one keg after another decimate any defenses that stood in their way. This brought to my attention how hilariously shit buildings are in beta, two kegs and your tower is gone, and with ten demolition shops the enemy team never ceased to have a primed keg at the base of my defenses. Kegs need to be changed, maybe limit the number of demo shops that you can have, I don't honestly know.

    I understand it is like this due to a lot of camping complaints and turtling, that occured in classic but since aggression is so much stronger then a good defense it makes me not want to touch builder, which used to be my favorite class.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
    SMASH1413, Atheon, Beelzebub and 2 others like this.
  2. Raelian

    Raelian Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    232
    10 demolition factories, that's just insane. It reminds me of the time I ended up joining a team that had (for whatever reason) 4-5 warboat factories in a map with very little water.

    Still a bit surprised that your team lost, I mean... that's 10 demo factories; two Halls used solely for kegs and no room for building anything else unless they had a third or fourth hall or have managed to gather tons of gold for extra migrants, not to mention that keg carriers can't shield, shield glide, slash jump or attack and can be picked off by archers but I wasn't there to witness this so no idea how your team dealt with the keg carriers or if the enemies really did have 3-4 halls for supporting the keg carriers with bombs, archers etc.

    From what I've noticed keg carriers tend to end up as kamikaze bombers that simply rush towards the enemy building as quickly as possible since it prevents enemy players from picking up the keg and moving them away from their structure. Even if the keg carrier is defenseless, the keg can sometimes end up exploding when the carrier is killed and if he has reached his goal upon dying then that was a job well done for the kamikaze knight since he'll respawn back in 20 seconds, more or less.

    I think one way to avoid kamikaze knights might be to increase their respawn timer to say.... 1 minute? And I mean ONLY to the kamikaze knight, no to those that die in the keg explosion (whether friends or foes). Although I'm unsure if that's possible.

    My reason for suggesting this is that it would make people think twice before performing a kamikaze dash one after the other, especially if you end up with half your team having to wait a minute to respawn, since that would be a great opening for the other team to rush them down. Of course, performing a kamikaze run could still be used to take down weak/smaller towers at the cost of one knight ending up out of the picture for a minute, which might still be useful depending on the structure demolished and how difficult it would be to have a builder ladder over it.
     
    Atheon, NinjaCell, Piano and 2 others like this.
  3. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    I know the feeling of excessive war boats [you just need three to keep of with their destruction], and long boats [you only need two to cause nigh constant and significant damages].

    As for the issue of preventing people from counterattacking constant kegs... you do get about 2 mines/demo lab...
    And other than that, lit kegs explode when lit and damaged which can both melt structures and teams. [No surprise if the defending team can't counter attacking since their base is next to a deep pit, and all ladders/bridges are destroyed]

    As for respawn timers, there is not much separating constant death due to combat and keg explosions set aside death messages. The system for respawn timer is based on the proximity to an allied[?] hall or spawnpoint, and how many tickets it has remaining [so halls that spawn quickly dying people spawn slower, a general team debuff], you are so out of luck in this situation.
    The same could happen with boats, ballistae, and catapults; and everyone can have a fucking huge issue about it.

    This game clearly doesn't value survivablity, but structures are what are supposed to justify that with providing a sort of defense.
     
  4. One

    One I got 99 problems and my name is One Donator Tester

    Messages:
    641
    Well it was a 5v5, 2 members of the enemy was getting a keg, blowing up our defenses then running back to get another, while the other 3 pressured us. It's very hard to counter constant kegs bashing into your walls, along with 3 knights. I think the spawn timer of kegs needs to be changed, not the people who die with them. Or set a server limit for the amount of demolition shops you can have.
     
  5. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    You just have to stall the enemy keg carriers before they reach your fort. There are many ways to do this, effective ones at that, and as much as I hate water ammo it's actually a really decent counter against keg rushing. You can also have a decent archer pick them off. However if the enemy knights simply are superior, there's not really much you can do and in this situation you are expected to lose.

    I wouldn't increase the production times because it would make "legit", single demo shops obsolete. An arbitrary limit to the amount you can have would be bullshit as well.
     
  6. Raelian

    Raelian Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    232
    Huh... I originally imagined that there were more players, like 10 v 10 or such where you'd have 3-4 keg carriers doing kamikaze runs one after the other with a very short time interval between explosions. But in such a case, if only 3 knights managed to pressure you then I think your team might have just been less skilled then the other team.

    In which case, as Monsteri already pointed out, if the enemy knights are superior to yours then there's not much you could do and the problem might not have been the kegs specifically.
     
  7. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    The problem is that ignited kegs explode when destroyed, it could be a huge mess of killing 1 knight, killed 2 teammates.
     
  8. JoshTG

    JoshTG Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    236
    I feel your pain, its disgusting how easy it is to spam kegs in CTF. A protective base can be destroyed in 2 seconds by knights steam rolling with kegs
     
  9. steve_jobs

    steve_jobs Horde Gibber

    Messages:
    134
    but think about it.
    a base filled with keg factorys? imagine the destruction if someone got in.:migrant:

    maybe have more than one migrant running demo shops?
     
  10. looks like someone didnt manage to stall the game for 4 hours using a door fort
     
  11. JoshTG

    JoshTG Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    236
    Does anyone really benefit from that though?
     
  12. Jlordo

    Jlordo Nobody Donator

    Messages:
    417
    The post or the door fort?
    I got a chuckle out of the post. And that exact match wasted all my free time. though I'm not sure that's a benefit.
     
  13. SMASH1413

    SMASH1413 Bison Rider

    Messages:
    225
    Kegs are far to over powerd in beta, they also work in a strange destructive path, I saw one that mainly destroyed across instead of a balanced shock wave, enabling more e.g. Towers to be easily destroyed.

    I say:
    i) lower their power.
    ii) Better determined shock wave.
    iii) slower the carriers speed.
     
  14. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

    Messages:
    2,196
    I think that kegs should be reworked. I think the fundamental problem is not their destructive power, which is very much needed, nor the scarcity for stall breaking is often very much needed, but rather the mode of delivery. The problem is that its far too easy to hold W+D and explode on impact with a key target.

    I suggest:

    1. Once lit kegs are dropped in place
    2. To pick up again one must undergo an animation in which they are rendered immobile
    3. If any damage is sustained during the picking up process the process is cancelled
    4. If picked up a keg is defused and the timer reset
    5. You have a free range of actions while holding a keg and it can be placed in the inventory once again

    This way you actually have to fight to get the keg into position and fight to defend it until it goes off. This way coordinated teams with an advantage can break stall, but lucky asshole who just yolo into battle can't endlessly decimate defences.
     
  15. RougeCupcake

    RougeCupcake Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    235
    I think they have just made kegs more expensive so that will help. 160 each I think. Also maybe limit the amount of kegs there can be at one time so the team cannot pile them up and go hundi gundi with those kegs
     
  16. Skinney

    Skinney THD Team THD Team Forum Moderator Tester

    Messages:
    468
    I agree that kegs need a little tweaking, however I think adding an animation and pickup timer isn't the way to go. Reason being that it doesn't scale well with server size, a larger server with more people will be inherently harder to pick up a dropped keg than a smaller server with less people. Not to mention quite a large amount of additional work to implement.

    Two possibilities in my opinion that could quell the keg problem are as follows.

    Water! Buckets, water bombs and water arrows will douse the fuse. This would stop said keg from counting down and make it temporarily unignitable.

    This would give water armaments much needed utility and would allow for tweaks regarding water stun.​

    Combat! Swords, pickaxes, etc will not cause a lit keg on destruction to spontaneously combust.

    This would allow defenders to make a stand in front of their castles and towers without the fear of god in their eyes. Attackers would also be more willing to escort a keg carrier knowing they didn't just sign their own death certificate. ​
     
  17. RougeCupcake

    RougeCupcake Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    235
    Water can finally have a use. kegs cannot simply destroy small walls in water because cannot be lit. Good idea Skinney!
     
  18. Raelian

    Raelian Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    232
    Having to clear a path in order to set up a keg and coordinate the attack sounds like a good idea to me, so I'm up for the keg tweaking suggestion. Also like the water bucket idea in order to diffuse the keg temporarily.
     
  19. applevac1998

    applevac1998 Shipwright

    Messages:
    23
    Not to help keg spammers or anything, but you can pack your kegs into crates and carry them while being able to fight. Literally, it's that easy to bring it to the enemy base without being defenseless.
     
  20. Guitarman

    Guitarman Haxor Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    686
    This changes everything.