[928] The problem with bombjumping.

Actually... the worst part doesn't come from the damage that one knight does, in fact, if such a knight could take on a couple of players before dying then that might buy his team enough time to swarm the enemy's tower unopposed.

A pro bomb jumping knight doesn't need to solo everything, if he manages to distract the enemies long enough for his teammates to capture their tower, the extra damage he does in the process is just a bonus.

 

So yeah, basically bomb jumping is the pinnacle of balance.

On the one hand it lets good players do crazy stuff.

On the other hand it's easy to stop if you're competent.

 

you dont know how happy i am when i get to their shop line, decimate everything but the knight shop, buy a keg and then decimate everything on my screen

 

I follow the rule ingame of "If I take out two guys every life, it's a net gain. If I take out three or more, I'm more than carrying my own weight." and I think that every person's goal should be to distract or annoy more than one enemy at a time so others can get in there and destroy or capture critical points.

Recently I played as a builder, and I dug my way under their base and fired off emote after emote. The enemy is like "oh shit there's a builder get under there" so two builders and two knights started digging their way to me. That actually means that I was making 4 people on the enemy team do something unproductive (obviously me getting the flag would be bad, but it didn't take 4 dudes to get to me) which meant my team had a net gain of three less enemies to deal with.

If everyone on your team has that mentality, you can win any match.

 

Spoken like a true champ. Take notes guys .

 

Imho he should make a tutorial on it

 

XD fuckin' Ej man, sarcasm noted bro.

 

I must say that I do agree that bombjumping is problematic to the class balance. I feel that bombjumping causes the knight to step on the toes of the archer's strong suit, which is mobility. Due to what appears to be simply a side-effect of the inclusion of bomb knockback in the physics system, knights have gained the ability to leap tall buildings in a single bound.

I feel that this is the most glaring of the issues in the game, because knights are just about best at everything (except building of course). They are not the most mobile at all times like the archer, but they are the most mobile when it counts, like when they're up against a fortified wall. Bombjumping is typically faster than grappling up a wall, and certainly less expected, so where it counts, knights appear to be best at scaling walls. Once on top of the wall, they are also the best at killing guys (as they should be), especially if the wall has the pretty typical defensive complement of an archer and a builder, both of whom are likely mince meat against a single knight that's at all good. Also, knights are the best (arguably) at sapping walls, because their bombs and kegs are effective at damaging blocks, and even the sword can contribute some damage to most walls (doors and wood blocks). I realize that many will still say that builders are better at taking down walls, but to those people, I would like to remind you that a builder needs partners to do it his way, because he can easily be rebuffed by a knight, an archer, or even another builder if the defending builder has the defensive advantage of his own wall to hide behind when needed. A knight can only be rebuffed by a superior knight, or a really great/lucky archer, or a combination of multiple foes.

Most importantly of all about the balance issue I see with the bombjump is that there is no viable counter to it. The only counters I can think of are non-viable, such as:
1. Build a wall into the stratosphere such that even knights re-entering from orbit will be unable to get over it. This uses a tremendous amount of resources and upkeep on behalf of the defending team to overcome a tiny expenditure from the team of the bombjumper to give him bombs.

2. Defend the area behind your wall with a bunch of dudes sitting around like dummies waiting for a knight to pop over the wall, leaving the defenders' team undermanned on the front lines.

3. Try to scrabble to victory in the enemy base before the bombjumper in your base has reduced it to rubble. This detracts from the game strategy and reduces it to hurry up to a "zergling rush" type of tactic and win before any real strategy kicks in.

Now, I'd like to come clean and admit that I haven't played for a very long time until recently, and admit that I only have about a month of experience since coming back, so I don't have intricate knowledge of all the facets of combat yet. However, I have seen enough to draw these conclusions. If anyone has additional info that I haven't considered and would like to set me straight, please do so by discrediting these points.

Thanks!

 

What Arburn says is true. You just need one archer or knight to actually stop a bomb jumper. Bomb jumping knights arnt op however, it takes some practice to angle that bomb explosion in order to successfully get over a tall wall. And besides, no knight can get over any wall in a single bound. It just depends on what's placed on the wall. Like for instance: say you're an archer, shooting some guys on another wall and there's an enemy knight about what... 40 blocks under you. If you dont see him prime up that bomb, then you're in for an unfortunate surprise, which always involves a knight in your face, making you back pedal into your base.. thus letting the man in.

Now, I just realized that you can also double bomb jump. But that can also be exploited by an archer who's either a really lucky man, or has aimbot. If said knight gets launched in the air.. and an archer actually stuns the ass. Then he expodes like a gory and morbid firework... as long as you act fast and pay attention, you can stop any bombjumper.
Now... nerfing bomb jumping is a slightly bad idea for one reason. Builders... in order to get up a wall as a knight you need builders to either make ladders up, or cut through. Sadly, because builders are currently underpowered at this moment, having one builder in a massive army of knights is kinda pointless, since a single slashing knight who's falling on you can pretty much stomp out a builder and kill off (If he's lucky) Almost all the knights. Either the builder needs a health buff, or they need something that wont render them minced meat.

 

I do agree with you to a point. It is possible to stop a bomb jumper if you are ready and quick/good enough with either a knight or archer. However, I am referring to the structure itself and how it is rendered far less useful due to the bombjump. Walls can be thwarted by the archer, the knight, and the builder. If there is little need for teamwork to overcome these obstacles, there will be little teamwork. Now look at KAG and the way many people play it. There is little teamwork, because people have seen that they can just be a knight and do everything they need to win without much help from other teammates/classes, if any. Indeed, it seems, from my experience, that knights make up the vast majority of users' favored classes. And why wouldn't they? Even non-expert players have realized that the knight gets the best results. A good player acting as a knight can carry his whole team, and often does.

That is most certainly true, although I was not addressing those things in this thread. Admittedly, I did not stay perfectly on topic either, but I don't want to get too far into the weeds debating the balance issues surrounding the myriad other potential balance gripes we may have. I'll be sure to post more things in other threads if you'd like to discuss some of these things more. I know that I certainly like discussing and debating about games like this, especially when the parties involved are civil and friendly with each other, as you have been with me.

I assume you are not agreeing with me here, but are restating the point I made. Your point about the associated cost is understood, but remember how many resources that wall cost the defending team, and how easily the bombjumper thwarted it with a mere 20-40 gold (or free in the case of TTH mode).

Not a bad point at all! However, it does assume that the enemy team is milling about the base. Not all game modes are likely to have that scenario, save for maybe CTF mode, correct me if I am wrong. (I prefer TTH mode most, so I have found base camping to be very rare)

That sounds like a breakdown of teamwork, and therefore a losing scenario for that team. However, I feel that this point is a little flimsy on the following grounds:
1.) one of the knights could get 1 or more additional bombs
2.) one of the knights could go become a builder to help
3.) the knights could request builder support from the rest of their team
4.) the knights could hack down the door of the wall. I realize this assumes that there is a door, but the wall would be an equal obstacle to both teams if it didn't have something other than stone blocks.
5.) You posit that there is a group of knights, yet they collectively have only one bomb. It is not terribly likely that all of them could successfully complete a bomb jump with the single bomb. So, assuming the wall is otherwise impassable for them, at least some of them are likely to still be standing at the wall saying "well......now what?", as you put it.

I do understand your point, though I do not agree that this makes knights underpowered, but simply less powerful than they are now with respect to scaling obstacles. Just as a builder cannot defeat the enemy army, and the archer cannot take a hall or a flag without assistance from his team of other classes, I am proposing that the knight cannot trivially overcome a well-built tower without help. Every class has a niche, and I feel they are each more rewarding if there are not other classes stealing their thunder by excelling at they same things they do.

The point about the archer is well-taken. I also believe that the bomb arrows are in the same category as bombjumping, in that they steal another class' thunder and discourage teamwork by expanding the archer's abilities too far beyond his niche. However, that is a subject for another thread.

Indeed. Just as people that prefer to play as builders or archers do not complain that they are bad at melee fighting, the knight players ought not complain about being bad at bypassing defenses. It is not their strong suit.

Yes, they would. Just as the offensive builder must wait for people to cover him before setting out after an enemy fort to destroy it, the knight must wait for a builder to take out the walls. This is the very thing that I believe the designers of this game were hoping for; that players would form teams and complement one another's abilities to mount an effective attack. The fact that the knight doesn't need support from his team in the way other classes to is at the very core of my position, and I feel the game is worse off for it.

Agreed, and that is a shining example of teamwork in action. I would like to see more of that by way of reducing what is, in my opinion, too much overlap between some of the class abilities, such as the bombjump, and, as you pointed out, the bomb arrow.

I'd like to also say that was a great post! I admit that I expected to get flamed right out of the gate because of how contentious this issue appears to be, but I'm glad to talk to someone so level-headed as you, even though we don't agree. Thank you!

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 31, 2013, Original Post Date: Oct 31, 2013 ---

@Sirpixelot: You raise some really good points, as well. It is not without significance that actually performing a bombjump does require some practice and expertise to reliably execute, so it is not just a "gimmie" like it is for an archer to scale a wall, which can be done by even an amateur player. On the other hand, though, this game takes place on the Internet, and seldom between just some buddies of relatively similar skill level. So, it is safe to assume that there will be a large number of players at all skill levels. That means there will be a large number of knights that can pull off even a multi-bombjump with amazing reliability (lookin' at you Contrary :P), and many, many more who can do it at least pretty reliably. So we're talking about a scenario where getting more skilled at KAG not only gives you the upper hand in combat and strategy, but it opens the door to an entirely different move that is incredibly effective and unprecedented in other classes. In fact, I think you may have touched on why this is viewed as a "cheap move" by many, especially new players. It allows very skilled players an additional huge advantage beyond just better tactics and skill at the controls, and makes them feel all the more powerless in front of a pro knight.

I have to respectfully beg to differ on this point. I have personally witnessed a player on my team, who was standing on tiles at the base of a tower near me, bombjump way up out of my screen over a colossal wall before I even realized what he was up to. It may require more skill than some have, but is certainly not accurate to say that no knight can do it, unless I am misunderstanding what you mean.

I'm not sure how you mean this point to be a justification in favor of bombjump being balanced. It is a fact that a bombjumper can get a jump on a distracted archer shooting elsewhere, and that is a neat trick, but is not in and of itself a defense for bombjumping. I still feel it is an overreach in ability for the knight class, despite some of the cool scenarios that it can cause.

I totally concede this point. You are right in that it is not completely impossible to stop a bombjumper as I (sort of) stated in my original post. But, it does require a substantial amount of skill and firm knowledge of the game mechanics to reliably do. I propose that an archer on top of a well built tower should have the upper hand vs. a knight on the bottom of it, assuming they are of similar skill. The situation really is more of a 50/50 thing in the current situation, though. A skilled archer will be ready for the knight to bombjump, and the skilled knight will be ready for the archer to stop him, so whoever executes better wins, and the strategic advantage you'd think the archer would have up in his perch does not really exist here.

I agree that builders are a bit soft in combat, making relying on them in said combat to be a little dicey. However, I don't necessarily think they need more health. I think that it should be made more difficult to deal sufficient damage to instakill them, as they have 3 hearts. This, though, is a separate topic.

With any significantly complex system, it is impossible to just change one thing without other things being impacted. This is especially true with game balance. If you eliminate the ability to bombjump, suddenly the knight will be much more dependent on his team than he is in his current, very self-sufficient state. So, the knight relies on the archer to help suppress the archers in the tower when possible instead of doing it himself. The knight relies on the builder to break open the wall (unless he uses a keg or siege weapon, of course) so he can wade in and murder everyone, instead of doing that himself. So, like in your point about the builder being to soft to fight up front right now, a developer has the unenviable task with game balance of having to look at the big picture of character interplay, and look at everything every time he wants to change even one thing, lest he risk the whole game being out of whack in one false move.

Thanks for the replies guys, you're awesome and probably way better at this damn game than me!

 

Imho take out bj, its stupid that knight noobd can scale walls that gosu minecrafters make

 

You know, your well made argument has swayed me fully. In fact, wtf are they thinking even having builders and archers in this game? King Arthur didn't have any fatbody builders and pussy archers at his round table!

 

You know what counters bomb jumpers? Spike pits :)

 

LOL nice. I probably should have added that an awesome door hallway should be part of any well built defense, too!

 

You know what also counters bomb jumpers? Spiked walls. :3
Spiked pits do work. But sadly, if there's a stupid ass player on said trapblocks over this pit, the knight can easily avoid that unfortunate situation all together... or just take down a few foes before falling in. o-o
How you ask? Just... land on the dude. xD Simple as that.. then Assassins Creed that situation a little and then die in a spike pit of glory... that is... if the knights get cha first... and slash you into the pit.. that's always possible.

 

Big reply as requested.

While the archer does have several good mobility options and it makes thematic sense it isn't actually sensible for the archer to have good mobility at all. Archers are incredibly vulnerable at close range so moving forward past the general blob of allies is practically suicidal and when you think about it archers have very little reason to do so. Knights can be effective in the heart of enemy territory due to their ability to take on large masses of close range enemies at once and do precise close range tile destruction. Archers are just as good at long range and don't particular benefit from infiltration. I have repeatedly recommended to Geti that archers be given more reason to advance but as KAG development comes to a close this seems increasingly unlikely to happen.

Bombs only used to push a knight back like 3 or 4 tiles. Bomb jumping is something I expressly requested.

To me this seems to be a problem with the archer, not the knight. I completely agree that knight surpasses the archer in just about all aspects, but I would say that the builder's potential to impact a game is at least equal to the knight, making the archer the odd man out and thus the one in need of adjusting.

This is completely viable. In TTH at least (I don't play CTF much for a number of reasons) the mat drops are perfectly adequate for making a well fortified base with a wall reaching the heavens. I frequently do this if there is a skilled knight on the other team. Really you don't even need to get it done during build time as it takes another minute or two for bombs to go online and a knight is not likely to make it all the way to your base on their first run, unless your team is crap (in which case you were going to lose anyways).

Due to constant respawning there will always be guy around base. Remember you don't even need a guy there right away. All you really need is a base that will survive the two or three bombs you have stockpiled. In fact it's better to not have guards around as when I bomb jump I usually rely on enemies to feed me bombs or open doors for me. Many times the enemy team will just ignore me and having run out of resources, I will be forced to return home.

So you find it easier to beat the entire enemy team in their base than the one guy in your base?

 

This part gave me a good chuckle.

>logic

 

If you think about it, what if your team made an almost impenetrable base... one that took pretty much the whole enemy team, except maybe one or two builders to attempt breaking in... say the team they're trying to pwn doesn't try to defend... only at times when someone successfully passes through the wall, instead they just stand there taunting like bastards while one advances and gets over the enemy wall.

Now, you're wondering, how about the few knights that do respawn and do see the enemy, well... if the knight is skilled enough, he can bypass the defense and bomb jump over... (That's if the guys he killed had bombs... or for some reason.. had a drill on hand and never took it out like a noob)... then total domination. This is only if the team that's attacking are stupid and dont fortify their defensive walls due to being too stronk while invading.

Obviously, there's a major flaw in this plan and that flaw is secondary walls... the main defense and only way to stop an enemy. Divide and conquer cannot be obtained unless the team you're in takes down a good chunk of the enemy wall.. while at the same time destroying the tunnel.. the rest is pretty obvious. owo

 

Well, I think you've managed to convince me that the bombjump ability isn't main balance problem in the game. I do think that the knights enjoy much more utility and self-sufficiency than the other classes do, but the bombjump isn't entirely to blame. For example:

Totally true, and obvious now that you've drawn attention to it. The archer's position and ability to move around doesn't help him out much. If he scales a wall and goes into enemy territory, so what? He's a wimp up close and is doomed. The grappling hook doesn't complement his attacks much at all, compared to the knight, whose attacking and shielding actions complement each other very well.

How audacious and explosive of you.

That's a good thought. The builders don't need to immediately put the wall into the sky. They can focus on a more balanced defense and build the spire to the heavens later, once it becomes apparent that the enemy has para-troopers.

Do you really have to leave once you're out of bombs or whatever? You can still wreak havoc behind enemy lines, at least as a good distraction. I think I just may be thinking in terms of more amateur players, as I am one. From some of your videos, I can see that the style of play is entirely different when everyone's a pro.[/quote]

When it is you, definitely.

Anyway, all of that said, I still have to say that in almost every game I have played or watched, the vast majority of players choose knight as their class every time. I doubt that is simply because they just like knight the best on a subjective level, but more because the knight class is the best. Maybe that can be rectified by empowering the other classes to get on par with knight, maybe its by weakening the knight in some respect, or maybe its a little of both. Game balance is one of the toughest parts of game design from my experience, so I don't envy the development team on this one.

Thanks for posting! I'm going to attempt to employ some of your wisdom the next time I play and see how it goes.