[939][Gen] Water Ammo Discussion

pls remove water ;_;

never ever remove mine body detonating

 

This is made me close my game and leave servers many times. If not water bombs, PLEASE remove bucket spamming

 

Being randomly prevented from controlling your character for 5 seconds isn't interesting at all. It doesn't keep you on your toes at all- there's not defense against it so it's not like it's not like you simply have to pay closer attention to the game. It's an unfair mechanic that harshly lessens skill.

 

Contrary speaks the truth, water buckets for one needs to be fixed. it just a stun that still allows you to attack the enemy. and if your in water while this happens its even more op. water bombs in my opinion either need to be removed or nerfed. knights having water bombs makes no sense and adds a certain layer of bs to the game. I am perfectly fine with water arrows the way they are accept for maybe the cost of them in ctf, but hell i wont complain about that if its not tweeked a bit. In the end most of us agree that water is an unfair tool that many abuse and take advantage of and needs to be tweeked severely to make the game truely fair. also.... geti are you implying the addition of water ammo was to purposely nerf pro knights? i mean i know its good for putting out fires but what you said about keeping them on their toes. it seems a bit unfair that water was added for that reason when its actually the players fault if he loses. adding a mechanic to make the loser have a chance seems a bit odd and unjust. just sayin

 

Kedram, a game developers job is to focus on the average player, not the 'pro-player' The game can only be fun if both the losing and winning side is enjoying themselves. Water is useful regardless, I doubt Geti thought about people using buckets to spam it.

 

The solution is simple, make all water ammo cost 10k. Its a very bad mechanic, players literally buy four of them and specifically chase ME with them knowing ill rage really hard (@Boxpipe you shitter). Its cheap and if you use them you should feel terribad as you are probably worse than players who spam 's in TTH... maybe.

 

my aquatic brethren speak truth.

 

@Geti: The problem with water bombs isn't one player using them to stun then finish off another, it's the following, common scenario:

Knights A and B are approaching enemy knights 1 and 2. A and B approach 1 with well timed, well positioned slashes. 1 mashes on his space bar. A, B and 1 are instantly stunned with no room for response. 2 gets free kills.

Even outside of this scenario it's the fact that fights happen in groups that breaks water ammo. Unlike normal bombs which need to be cooked water bombs can be primed and fired basically instantly. Now don't tell me "oh you can just grab it out of the air and toss it back in the middle of a fight" because water bombs don't need to hit directly and will generally proc on teammates or walls. Then there are water arrows...

You can theoryKAG all sorts of stuff like "grab it out of the air", "don't stand near teammates" and "position yourself so that they always knock you out of slash range" but in the chaos of an actual game, having an instant, ranged AOE stun is simply bad design. It's like making a Mario game and having invisible instakill spikes in random places.

If superior players are shying away from lesser ones because of a commonly available item, that should be a clear sign something is direly wrong.

 

I would love to say this is enough to covince the devs to nerf water bombs but its probobly not. in fact they buffed water bombs now with the fact that they just pass through teamates now anyone can just water bomb you. well if worst comes to worse we will just simply mod it out of server clan war situations.

 

Geti, i see what your saying about other games having this kind of stun. sc being the most competative game out of them all. that game is fairly ballanced and theres a reason things like the queens ensnare exist. what i think were all looking for is this. we want water bombs to not explode on impact. this forces a player to get good at the timing of a water bomb to throw it at the exact time when it would explode next to the enemy and then stun them. right now its as easy as 123 to completely ruin any hope a knight has of doing anything at all with an instant stun on contact device. it just seems too easy for anyone to use water bombs to stun you. Is that reasonable to consider geti? i mean it adds a new layer of depth to using water bombs and would actualy make it a challenge to use it instead of having a practiall instakill everytime a knight uses one. and trust me 9/10 it does kill me when some guy decides to use one.

 

Wasn't implying that, was responding to the "tossing them back" point which I felt to be a little unreasonable, even as a secondary point.

I'm alluding to the fact that at any point in normal reasonable play you could be harshly punished. Unless you have absolute knowledge of your opponent's inventory, any sword fight could result in you being instantly stunned.

True. I'll try to keep things more argument oriented.

Because all of these can be fought against. In Pokemon it is common to have a designated "sleep absorber", something that can either switch into and negate the effects of sleep or is not disadvantaged too much by it (has moves that are usable while asleep). Freeze can be undone by use of specific moves and each paralysis inducing move is ineffective on at least one type of Pokemon (and there are numerous abilities which prevent it). That said there is a lot of random proccing of freeze and paralysis and even we scream bullshit and call that bad noncompetitive play. Dizzy in SF requires you to beat the hell out of your opponent first, ensare only targets one unit not everything you control like water ammo (if there was an ability that prevented someone from doing anything for 5 seconds in Starcraft that would be ridiculous). Sandman I don't enough to comment on.

The problem isn't the stun, it's the magnitude of the effect combined with the ease that it happens.

I think we would be amenable to a suitable nerf. But the intensely negative response could be seen as indication of how harmful the mechanic is.

Fair. Argument mode gooo.

It's not just a group situation. Again, at any point where you attempt to engage a knight in melee combat you have a chance of being stunned.

Well that's a question for you really. I think it's clear we think so but it really is a judgement of the developer how much they want skill to matter.

 

Drill is not even threatening and no drill user can touch you with properly spaced slashes. Mines take time to arm and require great folly to trigger. You can see saws/trap blocks. Slashing someone with a keg and having it explode is BS imo but it's entirely avoidable. Boats are also BS but again, also avoidable. All of these things can be avoided with normal good play. The only way to avoid surprise instastun is to not go into melee range.

Ok fair point, but it is a greater problem in the future when more of a competitive scene develops or when the general populace starts cluing in. Took a while for door ladders to catch on but when it did, well you know.

Yeah, that is the one way to combat water bombs. I think that speaks as to its disproportionate strength though.

True. I thought you meant group situation like on the part of 1/2 but that was a silly interpretation for me to make.

Not quite the same. There is constant game of inches with slashing. With water bomb its spacebar spacebar now you're helpless.

Fair point but the reverse is also true. Players should be rewarded for their skill, and water bombs doesn't just lessen this but sometimes removes it completely, killing them before they can do anything. Also the other kind of reverse is true. Many times I've used water bombs to unfairly slaughter a whole big clump of guys.

Again, not just the magnitude of the effect but the condition.

That would be interesting, and regardless of any other change I'd like that to be on there. One simple thing that comes to mind is having an arming time, of even 3-4 seconds. Bombs are extremely strong but you have a lot of forewarning before they take effect so at the very least you can run away from them. I can't think of a logical explanation as to why you would need time to prime a glass of water though (but then again I can't understand why it stuns you).

Anyways, cool discussion gonna split this off into a new threat then sleeeeeep.

 

Water arrows are the best thing ever added to an archer. Well except for maybe the bomb arrow. I always carry two water arrows in my inventory when i'm making a run for a flag. If you select the water arrow then grab the flag you can stun those pesky archer, knights and builders that are following you trying to get the flag back. Water arrows have saved my life

 

The ultimate solution that fits the class mentality we're trying to pull: Remove water arrows, make water bombs an archer-only item.