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[984] Teammates Stealing Bombjumps

Discussion in 'Classes & Mechanics' started by Klokinator, Jan 9, 2014.

  1. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    I know that personally, I am sick and tired of tossing a bomb(s) on the ground, and some teamie running over and shielding down on my bombs like a goddamn retard. And I have no defense for it. If they choose to do it, they're fucking the both of us over, as they do not get even the explosion for themself. The explosion just fizzles and loses everything. I cannot stress enough that there is no defense against this. By the time they decide to shield down, you're usually at least halfway past the timer and you can MAYBE save one bomb at best. And usually 98% of the time you can't even do that much.

    So I have three propositions to fix this, starting from worst to best fix, in my opinion.

    1. Keep things the way they are, basically allowing my teamies to grief my bombjumps.

    2. Make bombs affect teamies and self equally, not counting them taking damage. This way, if they shield down on my bomb, whoever is closest to the bomb will receive the boost. It still steals from me, but at least THIS way it doesn't waste it entirely. If shielding down on my bomb actually launched them and they climbed said enemy structure, fine.

    The disadvantage to this though is that people will then start bomb stealing even more, as it will actually WORK when they do it, thus making the problem even more rampant.


    3. Make bombs a player tosses not affect or be affected by a teammate, unless they grab the bomb themselves, thereby claiming it as their own. (Like if a player were to toss a bomb and grief their own structure, a teamie could grab it and throw it away.) This way, if an ally's bomb goes off near you, it will have zero knockback or effect on you, as if it weren't even there, also meaning no more shielding down on my bombs anymore unless you grab and drop them yourself. (And that'd be a massive prick move.) If you do, I will still sail into the air as intended and it will do nothing for you.

    The only disadvantage I can see is that it pretty much makes bomb jumping foolproof, but having a teamie essentially grief your bombjump, even if unintentionally, seems like a shitty waste to me. Also if people don't know about the grab-and-switch for making a bomb your own, then they may shield on a griefing bomb uselessly and it will go off, destroying the block(s)/structure(s)


    Frankly I'd want to see #3 implemented. I am just so sick of this happening.
     
    Vampire, Piano, BlueLuigi and 2 others like this.
  2. Shambls

    Shambls Tree Planter

    Messages:
    65
    This would definitely help in those stagnant periods in TTH where you tech hasn't gone to Keg or cata and really your only method of dealing with a good tower is bomb jumping or attack builders. Every bomb counts in that stage of the game.
     
    hierbo and Sir_Walter like this.
  3. hierbo

    hierbo Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    190
    To be honest, only suggestion #2 sounds at all reasonable to me. I know a lot of people swear by bombjumping, and it has become a widely accepted part of the game, but your other suggestions involve piling additional special code onto this edge case in order preserve the mechanic you are seeking.

    Basically, what I'm saying is that if bombjumping emerges from the physics system and the knockback effect of bombs, fine. But, if you are hacking in a bunch of special case code on top of what is already there in order to make knights be able to bombjump more reliably, that is silly. I know that is subjective, but there you have it.
     
    Trumbles and Klokinator like this.
  4. Arcrave

    Arcrave http://tinyurl.com/ArcravesTheme Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    262
    1. If not bomb-jumping cook your bombs. There is no reason to not cook a bomb.
    2. There are 4 ways to single bomb-jump, 2 of which do not require a bomb to be placed on the ground.
    3. There are also 3 different (reliable/easy) ways that you can double bomb-jump. Each has its own advantages, and vary in usefulness depending on position.

    This shouldn't be a problem that requires a mod to fix.
     
    Piano, Rubixxcube and hierbo like this.
  5. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    Triple bomb jumping requires spacebar spam on the ground. Double bomb jumping requires at least one bomb on the ground. The only "safe" bomb jump is a single bomb jump.
     
  6. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

    Messages:
    3,620
    Anything that nerfs the bombjumping I'm totally against it, the only solutions I see working are:
    1)Remove damage/influence by teammates
    2)Full influence but no damage to teammates

    Anything else is just, no. Damaging teammates opens too much griefing and makes fighting too annoying, most of the other ideas are too much extra coding I'd say for a simple problem.

    I don't see any reason why teammates should influence your bombs at all, haven't seen that problem in the past.
     
  7. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    I think you didn't understand the OP at all. I'm saying (In solution 2) that bombs would fully influence teammates, as far as knockback, but NOT as far as damage. So if a bomb hits a teammate, they won't take damage, but they will recieve full knockback. This means no more teamies shielding on your bombs and "stifling them", so to speak.

    My preferred solution is making teammates have no effect on your bombs so that they can't use your bombs when shielding on them, unless they grabbed the bomb (thus taking ownership of it as would currently happen) and then dropped it down again.

    This would also mean two people could bombjump from the same spot by tossing their own bombs down.
     
  8. Arcrave

    Arcrave http://tinyurl.com/ArcravesTheme Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    262
    Well those aren't triple bomb-jumps, thats really just bomb vomit, and if you do it properly (not taking lag into account) you can do a tripple with only ONE bomb [explosion] on the ground...
    You can also get a double bomb-jump with zero bombs having to be on the ground when they explode.

    EDIT: Again, this is not taking lag into account, and having perfect timing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  9. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    Well, that is sort of true, but you can never get the kind of sheer propulsion power with the classic method that you can with the spacebar spam method. Think of it as additive versus multiplicative.

    With the classic method, you use the first bomb to shoot yourself up, then by timing it right, propel yourself higher by adding the thrust of the second bomb. You would then have to light the third bomb in midair while shield gliding (and falling downward) then toss it below yourself, propelling yourself upwards to the height you were just at with the second bomb jump (Possibly higher, but usually a little lower).

    With spacebar spam, all the bombs go off at the same time. They multiply into each other and blast you into the stratosphere, which is really what will get you over those bigass towers that stall games into the netherworld.

    So it's like 2 + 2 - 2 + 2 = 4 versus 2 x 2 x 2 = 8. You get double the height (More actually, BC can often break the height barrier on maps) allowing you to get over the tower.

    Now don't get me wrong, the classic method is great in many cases, most notably for horizontal distance travelling, but nothing tops spacebar spam for vertical height. Well, except this.

    My issue is that spacebar spam is negated entirely by a dumb teammate shielding down. And personally I prefer dropping a single bomb on the ground and shielding to jump. Both because it's foolproof (I've never had lag fuck up the timing on these and kill me) and because it's reliable (I always get exactly the height I need).

    If this never gets fixed, I'll live, but I will still periodically be filled with rage. Spacebar spam is by far the most broken aspect of bomb jumping (Anyone can do it as it takes no skill compared to the classic method) and if it were actually entirely removed and only the classic method stayed, that'd really be okay by me.
     
  10. Arcrave

    Arcrave http://tinyurl.com/ArcravesTheme Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    262
    That's not how you triple bomb jump with the classic method. :rekt:

    I know how the bomb vomit works, and the pros/cons. Its not very useful though, mainly when you can just go builder and spam a wood bomb-jumping tower and easily get over any tower with one bomb.

    Also seems like we agree on the terribaide bomb vomit jumps, I'm just saying that you should avoid doing it yourself, thus solving your problem.
     
    BlueLuigi likes this.
  11. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    Do you have a video about what you use then? I'm not using your method correctly then if this is the case.
     
  12. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    This happens due to the code that also allows you to protect team-mates from enemy explosions, and structures from friendly ones. It seems kind of backwards to introduce more tangly edge case catches to the explosion logic at this point.

    The better "fix" would be for them to get the launch - they're actually meant to as is, but that broke at some point.

    In the mean time, honestly, if you're near a bunch of teamies, just single bomb jump and do it properly. If you're double or triple bomb jumping there's got to be more than one spot to jump from due to the massive range, if you're single jumping and you keep hold of the bomb til the last few frames there's very little chance of it being blocked by a teamie.
     
    BlueLuigi likes this.
  13. Arcrave

    Arcrave http://tinyurl.com/ArcravesTheme Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    262
    nah no vids, at least for beta. i think there are still some from the classic days somewhere around here.
     
  14. JoshTG

    JoshTG Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    236
    IMO much more important than double bomb jumping in team play, double jumping is good for lone wolf reking but when you have a competent archer behind you, your gonna be bumming when he gets insta gibbed
     
    BlueLuigi likes this.
  15. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    Wat. Your bombs won't hurt your teammates. If you're bombjumping, it should be obvious to a nearby allied archer and they will hopefully take appropriate action. Also if you're bombjumping right as enemies are nearing you, you're doing it wrong :P

    Like I said, this does have the disadvantage of making them shield on your bombs more so it may not be a good tradeoff to even do this. People shouldn't be using their allies bombs for bombjumping. Now if the first bomb shoots them up and the next bomb that goes off a split second later shoots you up, that'd work fine I guess, but either way they shouldn't be encouraged to do this so I kinda prefer the current way it works.
     
  16. JoshTG

    JoshTG Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    236
    Nah nah, i mean protecting your archer from enemy bombs, if i have to sacrifice a double jump or two a game i will if it means a teamplay feature stays in the game.
     
  17. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    Well yeah, if a horde of enemies/even one knight is approaching, it's great to kill him before blasting off, but if the archer is just sitting there and not taking appropriate action/not being a good archer then I would argue that your skills are better put towards recking the enemy base.

    Also this is getting off the original topic, and Geti posted saying what the solution is so, close this I guess?
     
  18. JoshTG

    JoshTG Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    236
    Meh, protecting archers and builders are crucial if they're actually good
     
  19. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    If I had you behind me (A good archer) then yes I would work together with you. But then again, if you saw me about to bombjump, I can reasonably assume you'd either be able to hold your own, or you'd grapple their wall, or run to safety, or distract them, or any other number of useful things an archer can do as the support class.

    Speaking of useful archers.
     
  20. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

    Messages:
    3,620
    Please don't perpetrate this behavior any more than it needs to, it's already bad enough to get moderators to stop doing this senseless bullshit. Just because a solution has been posted, does not mean that a)The conversation is over or b)it is going to actually happen. Geti is busy, so the chance of that happening might not be that high, especially if talking the near future.

    Even then, threads such as these are great to come back to reference if within the next weeks or months given nothing drastically changes about the feature someone wants to bring back up this topic. This solved thread = closed thread mentality creates an unhealthy dichotomy with the idea of not 'reposting ideas', seen mainly in Suggestions, where this probably belonged to start, as it was more of a list of suggestions for a problem than an invitation for discussion.

    There is also no reason at all to backseat mod, the moderators have been doing their job here for a while and will usually know when to close a thread or not, they don't generally need you to go telling them when.

    Were there no vids saved from the triple bomb jumps in classic at least? I thought someone was recording when we were doing that.

    Well in the case of a bomb coming really fast, that could possibly be a problem, where you could save them and they couldn't save themselves, if it's a very fast paced scenario especially.

    I actually found something funny, it seems you can reset the bomb timer by putting it in your inventory, but you'll just blow up @_@;
     
    Boxpipe and Knighthart like this.