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A new and improved mapcycle

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by mcrifel, Apr 17, 2017.

  1. mcrifel

    mcrifel Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester
    1. MIST

    For the last week me and @franek123 have been going through the official mapcycle and pointing out the positives and negatives. Our goal is to make the KAG official mapcycle great again. After days of work we have finally finished it, we modified almost every map and also removed a few and added a few.

    This mapcycle has been tested and modified a lot, and we think it is now fully complete. If you want to play with these maps then there is a server for that: MIST ctf eu testing new and improved mapcycle

    Now what maps did we change, scrap, add? Lets go through them one by one.

    Modified maps:


    - Added more stone underground


    - Moved flag forward
    - Added more stone underground

    - Raised bedrock at mid
    - slight increase of gold at mid but still sticking with the scarce gold theme
    - Added more stone underground


    - Removed back flag
    - added more stone underground


    - Added a mid you can capture
    - Raised bedrock at mid and shaved off a shit ton of bedrock that was making the map big and caused slight fps drops.
    - Added stone underground

    - Raised bedrock at mid
    - Put more stone underground

    - Raised bedrock at mid
    - Added stone underground
    - Raised sky slightly

    - HearthPlains
    - Raised bedrock slightly at mid
    - Separated the 2 flags
    - Added more gold at mid and a slightly bigger hill

    - MilleniumBell

    - Old map moved back into the map cycle
    - Changed mid
    - Added more stone underground

    - NewTortuga
    - Another re-added map
    - Made the small island at mid unfloodable, this instantly makes the map work
    - removed 1 flag
    - Added more stone underground

    - Gurin_DoubleSided
    - Added a capturable mid, raised slightly higher than the other platforms, this prevents stalemates
    - Removed some gold at spawn and added some more at mid
    (thanks @Fuzzle for fixing the dirt problem)

    - JTG_FirstBadlands

    - Moved flag down
    - Moved bedrock up at mid

    - JTG_BoulderLake
    A controversial Map but it does create some fun matches
    - Moved back flag slightly forward
    - Reduced spawn gold
    - Added more stone underground
    - Bed rocked bottom mid off at the sides

    - Lavaguy678_Meadow
    - Raised bedrock at mid
    - Added a bison at mid to make this map stand out, fits the theme and works nicely
    - Added stone underground
    - Removed some flowers/grain

    - mcrifel_Steppes

    (this has already been put in map critique)
    - Raised bedrock at mid
    - More stone underground
    - Gold moved

    - MonsteriCTF1
    - Bedrock raised at mid
    - Less gold

    - MonsteriCTF2

    - Removed Back flag
    - Changed bottom of mid, you can now go under at both sides
    - Removed small pudle at the left
    - Raised bedrock at mid
    - More stone underground

    - MonsteriCTF3

    - Slightly lowered the sides

    - Punk123_AntQueen

    Probably will be controversial as this map has changed a lot
    - Top of mid made thicker with bedrock in there as well
    - Bottom of mid now has water and the two previous walk ways are blocked off
    - Tents moved way back
    - Small puddles of water can't flood everything anymore

    - Punk123_PlatformedPredicament

    - Moved tents back
    - Added slightly more gold at mid

    - Moved flag forward
    - Raised bedrock at mid
    - More stone underground
    - Slight increase of gold at mid

    - Punk123_AlienFrogAssault

    - Removed top flag
    - Added more stone at the bottom
    - Shaved a shit ton of bedrock
    - Raised bedrock at mid
    - A slight rework of the gold

    - Radioactive_Dahill (rip can't upload anymore files)
    - Slight gold changes, left mostly unchanged though

    - Shadowor_IslandCoast
    - Made ground sturdier
    - Moved bedrock up
    - Removed water pit next to flag
    - Made middle stone background instead of dirt

    - Shadowor_ProvingGrounds
    - Sky raised slightly
    - Bedrock raised at mid
    - Ground made sturdier (removed random pieces of dirt backwalling in the ground)

    - Skinney_Bluff
    - Changed flag island slightly so that it is easier to create a tower

    - Skinney_Crypt
    - Blocked off bottom corners with bedrock no more sneaky rats there
    - Lowered spawn gold

    - Skinney_Typhoon
    - Lowered spawn gold

    - Trekobius_DragonsLair
    - Removed some pointless space between crocodile and tent
    - Moved flag down and forward
    - removed water at mid
    - raised bedrock

    Removed maps:

    - 8x_Snitchmerk
    average game length on this map is about an hour, middle gets destroyed fast turning this into a u shaped water map with flags close to tents making them very hard to capture.

    - Fellere_FourRivers
    Come on do I really need to explain? Hint: It is big

    - The entire ffsff series
    3 of the most hated maps in the game, good riddance

    - Joiken_CTF2
    the first thing that comes to mind when I think of stalemates is this map.

    - Mazey_Junctions
    Mid is way too high, flags and tent too close, the flooding is questionable, too much to fix, you'd better off be starting from scratch.

    the notes franek made on this map sums this up perfectly:

    it's just so fucking bad //no offence mazey
    middle doesnt give shit
    upper flag is so hard to reach
    annoying to build base in
    sky is way too high

    - Potatobird_SharkRomance
    Looks really cool but the map is very flawed with the tent being very close to the flags and very digable dirt and a big cave for rats to breed it no thank you

    - Punk123_AntKing
    Absolute garbage flag placement, tent and flags seem like siamese twins of how close they are, middle is kinda ok but thats where it ends.

    - Punk123_Hillo
    Encourages bomb arrow spamming a bit too much as that is almost the only way to win this map. And thus very little strategy and turns into a stalemate + jump in die repeat map. Not fun

    - SJD360_Overdose
    Overdose of trash

    Added maps:

    - 8x_Grounds

    One of the best maps in the MLK cycle and would work wonders in the official cycle

    - mcrifel_fish

    Another good MLK map that should work in the official cycle

    - Rayne_KingArthursPonds (welp forums doesn't allow me to post more pictures)
    - Its back our favorite siege spam map that was actually good, remained unchanged

    - HeraldsMarshesCTF
    Tdm map made CTF, who knew a tdm map would work so well on ctf, many changes were made though

    Unchanged Maps:

    - CerberosRift
    - Snatchmark
    - JTG_Aqueduct
    - Oodle_Stonethrow //this one was a close one but its nice to have 1 clusterfuck map
    - Rayne_NerysRidge

    Phew that took a good 2 hours to write, I learned something else, there is a cap on the amount of files you can upload you can have in a forum post. All the images of maps I wasn't able to post here will be put in the next post.

    Is this in the right section? I sure hope so because imo it fits here. And yes this is meant to replace the official cycle if that wasn't clear already. Gosh i'm not thinking straight I should really take a break. Here ends my rambling.

    If you are curious why I made the changes that I did then take a good look at this video:

    We are up for changes, lets make the KAG mapcycle great again!

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
  2. mcrifel

    mcrifel Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester
    1. MIST

    franek123 likes this.
  3. dodo1knight

    dodo1knight Catapult Fodder

    Wow great job, keep it up, Im proud of you.
  4. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler

    Please remove generated maps (kaggen) from the mapcycle.
    Potatobird and mcrifel like this.
  5. mcrifel

    mcrifel Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester
    1. MIST

  6. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler

    While I believe the current rotation could use more stone at the bottoms, isn't the added stone a bit excessive? Also, it could've been done in a more elegant manner. You wouldn't want to encourage people to dig up the entire map.
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
    PUNK123 likes this.
  7. franek123

    franek123 The architect of the royal castle. Donator Tester

    Theres usually more stone on middle, that encourages players to move to middle if they don't want do dig 50 blocks down. Plus if we're talking about that type of players that just sit in base dig stone and build huge stone shit towers, they are usually not well informed about mats placement and will go for what they see. The low bottom stone main goal is to support builder's offense in late games when before they had to build with wood only. That made terrain capturing almost impossible.
  8. Kazaco97

    Kazaco97 Bison Rider Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    Since it was somehow unsaid, thanks to all the mappers who have contributed to the game as it isn't easy.

    My opinion:
    - Oodle_Stonethrow needs to be expanded (too small for a 10v10)
    -Map heights/Map size/Gold need to feel more consistent on all maps (telling a pub gold is at mid and it's not :oops:)

    I haven't looked at everything (busy atm), so I may come around later.
    SirDangalang and franek123 like this.
  9. franek123

    franek123 The architect of the royal castle. Donator Tester

    I'm not fan of this map either but many people like it. It's a clusterfuck but it's what ppl want somethimes. It's not a stalemap though so there's no need to change it. We need some diffrent maps and this one is only one small map atm afaik.
    PUNK123 and Kazaco97 like this.
  10. Potatobird

    Potatobird Bison Rider Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Don't know how close these maps are to this, but I feel that all gold veins should have at least one block visible from the surface or bordering a dark cave people can see on the minimap, so nobody has do to /savemap to know where the gold is at.

    I like how savage the removed maps section is, it's pretty funn-
    WAIT NO :QQ: Bububut what about my updated version? I fixed those things, kinda. I guess it still has the caves though. I get it if y'all think it's too weird for the cycle.

    And yeah, sharpedo bluff was exactly where I got the idea from :P
  11. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Hey, cool stuff. I'll have to remember to come review the changes after I get the next build out. There's a lot of stuff holding it back though :(

    There are a few changes and some philosophical stuff I don't agree with though :) I know that there's a few tried and true KAG map patterns that lead to more fun maps, but there are a few cases where you've kind of followed this blindly.

    An example is with Hearth Plains - the map is intentionally very close to a flat map, and adding a hill at middle "so that people can take middle" goes against that goal. The map is a result of direct community requests for "flat maps" in vanilla - I didn't want to go totally flat, so there's a slight hill and the little outpost lumps that you can capture on either side.

    I'm fine with the bedrock floor being raised, but I think doing that on every map is quite prescriptive as well. I know folks ratting across the map isn't much fun for pro knights, but I also think if you aggressively eliminate tunneling, aggressively cut down the sky height so people cant jump too far, and always have a hill at mid with gold and stone, every map quickly becomes the same experience, and I'm not sure I'm in favour of that loss of diversity.

    Similarly with the request to remove the inherently imba generated map - I wouldn't run it in a tournament, but official servers aren't MLK and the (very conservatively tuned) generator provides some variety.

    Basically I believe there's a middle area between the "kag art" maps that never cede to gameplay, and low sky tunnel-proof flat maps with hill at mid and lots of stone.

    That said, I like the MLK maps having a good distance from tent to flags and hard-to-access tent areas. My least favourite part of playing KAG at the moment is how often your base gets jumped into and bombed to pieces if you're on the losing team - I feel like it contributes a lot to the attrition that sets in and results in a lot of people leaving. Map design that curbs it is great.
  12. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    I read the comment in the map feedback suggestions thread afew days ago and typed up a response to say that it just wouldve been better to alert people to the issues you saw, atleast at first. I decided against posting it but because of some of these changes i felt i should write it here. Also be warned snark incoming because of the language already used in regard to maps.
    Im personally not a big fan of changing around maps to add more stone unless it is a legitimate problem(ie map barren) but that is just i qualm i have. I also personally though, map philosophy wise, 8x placed less stone underground to discourage tunnel(as it is asscancer to deal with builders mining res and blocking off their rear, and changes to those type of things i dont really find worthwhile. I also dont agree with just raising bedrock at mid just because when things start to deteriorate there will be an unchangeable mound there to stall chargers.

    As for alienant, the entire point of the map was to be flat and a slaughterfest. Adding just a cave area just makes it a poorly constructed vanilla map and it shouldnt exist at that point.
    For the ej maps, especially blue sunset, the bedrock really isnt an improvement. Id personally rather have a wasteland pit at mid that three awkward bedrock hills that make movement cancerous.

    With hearthplains I think the original is superior, because that mound upfront was supposed to be used to defend your flags, and although im a big opponent of doubleflags it kinda worked on that map.

    For Millenium bell i think it used to be a good map for official and cant really compare the new changes to old changes(though i somewhat remember the bottom mid being more open and i think thatd be cooler than just abunch of dirt blocks).

    Newtortuga seems fine and the bedrock was probably a good fix(though i havent see the original).
    With GurinDoublesided im definitely more of a fan of flatness, because again slaughterfests are fun. Though the "best maps" may have more interesting terrain with "capturable" mids i think there is definately a place for flater maps with a large sect of this community.

    With Monsteri 1 and 3 they havent changed much so it probably wouldnt matter which was on official, but with 2 i definitely would prefer to keep one of the few uneven maps, that is somewhat balanced, on official in its original state.
    It didnt just change alot, it was ruined. It turned into controlling the top(which it already was)to either blocking off the watered area(which in itself would be cancer to undo) or placing a tunnel down there using backwall which is twice as trash. The changes keep the conquest of the top as the goal, while at the same time removing fighting at the bottom(which is a very lackluster change). The water just made the stalemate at the bottom worse(atleast in the original it was a combat area now it is just idiotic). I also am very annoyed that there are issues with so many of my maps that have never been brought up to me(so much to the point where you butcher a map thinking it will make the mappool better). Id also like to point out you floodproofed a FLOODED MAP. Which is literally pointless in everyway(I also requested the water just be removed awhile ago so i cant really be blamed for the map being subpar in that regard).

    Yea minor changes like that(to platformed predicament) arent really that important, and could have easily been brought up whenever or pointed out. Not much fixed that caused any real problems.

    With memory Lane, the map was one of my first and certainly could conceivable be changed up. I dont agree with just placing the flag on ground level though i think it would be a solid idea to move the flag upward:

    something like this perhaps: Punk123_MemoryLane.png

    Again i disagree with the stone placement in bedrock(both because it wont universally be broken down there unless tunneling(and we shouldnt help those people) and because it doesnt practically help resourcewise.

    For alienfrogAssault youre literally just giving the tunnelers the most resources at the bottom of the map imaginable, the top flag is fine and usually the first to be captured, i think the sky needed to be lowered but it never got around to being done(believe i requested that or maybe i left too much), and yea im not 100% sure about the statement that shaving bedrock leads to better fps(but if it does by all means do that).
    Some of these things i agree with, so i deleted the regarding bits, but the ones i am quoting i have serious problems with. Snitchmerk is a really fun and fine in my opinion and, like with most of 8x's maps, the several layers on it allow for travel after deterioration(and if map takes over an hour so what its a good and fun one).

    As for ffsff's map, can you not be so rude when talking about other's maps. This specific player made a ton of maps in the past I havent seen much help or constructive criticism tossed his way to make the maps more playable.

    Back to my map, can you seriously go fuck yourself. The flags do work close and I havent received one iota of criticism from you regarding any of my maps. The only solace i have from you just scrapping the map in your cycle is that you didnt butcher it and keep my name on it(we're talking antking here).

    As for Hillo that map just has to die. It was originally a weird and original(and cancer) map. Mazey just removed the weird and original part and now its just cancer.
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  13. 8x

    8x Elimination Et Choix Traduisant la Realité Forum Moderator Tester Official Server Admin
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    In my opinion, adding more stone underground gives rats more breath and make them survive easily, and raising the bedrock level underground might seem a counter to it, but it kills part of the freedom to tunneling, which is an important part of the game ( I see this specialy in the modified version of Ej_BlueSunset). Lowering the sky works well for some maps (Pork_Buns has an acceptable height, but not enough to take sieging from your base as the best option). Being able to take an elevated solid mid area means being able to destroy enemy's base with bomb bolts just because, and I'm a furious detractor of that. It happens specially, for instance, in Punk_MemoryLane.

    Regarding my maps, except for Fest_Pass, which is an adaptation of a map of mine, made by Kodysch iirc, I would like the rest to remain as they are. The bedrock, the resources and the shapes in general were thought to be as they are. Gloryhill was tweaked by Skinney, but perhaps it would need some limitation for rats right under the flag, Bald_Joyce intends to replicate the classical generator maps feel; and the flag at Pork_Buns should be under that small island or terrain, as if exposed, builders will lay a shit ton of stone between the dirt islands above.

    The effort put on the tweaks is always appreciated however.
    PUNK123 and Fuzzle like this.
  14. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler

    The effort is definitely appreciated. I do however agree with some of the points stated by @8x and @PUNK123. Modifications to maps can often be discussed: There's never one answer / solution. I believe it's best to preserve all revisions and have new revisions divided into folders (or renamed - de_dust2). I sometimes miss the old original maps that have been modified into something completely different.

    While on the topic, some dreams I have:
    • A vote system for maps (both in- and outside the game).
    • A simple statistics system for maps. For example: Times skipped, times & time played.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 20, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 20, 2017 ---
    @mcrifel, would it be possible to commit it all via Git? Then it can be discussed and revised there.
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
    SirDangalang and franek123 like this.
  15. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    As far as I remember in MonsteriCTF2 (it was yeaaars ago), I made the red team have an easier access to the high ground so they have a slightly better chance of winning the fight at the beginning, but their middle entrance is easier to wall and it's easy for a blue builder to go under and set up a base there. I played on this map a few dozen times and I definitely saw this happening, it was an interesting dynamic in my opinion. Removing the small asymmetric variation that wasn't a balance issue doesn't serve the map or the map pool imo.

    Removing the second flag I'm not opposed to, because, well, I haven't played actively in years and if the community has gotten better then it's possible it may cause stalemates. Back when I played it usually snowballed after the first flag though, unless the retreating team retreated a bit too much and the chasers captured the middle in their wake. Was fun to see when it happened.

    anyway whatever, just wanted to give my 2 cents cause I had fun times on that map.
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
    Noburu, UnnamedPlayer and PUNK123 like this.
  16. mcrifel

    mcrifel Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester
    1. MIST

    Back from Berlin that is why the delayed response, I have somewhat limited time so I will try to keep it short. There are some very solid arguments so I will start from the top and work downwards skipping the less important ones just for times sake.

    I'll take a look at the new shark romance and see if it works, perhaps it might be fun to have a gimmicky map.

    With hearthplanes, the hill was a decision I made right before I made the post having seen hearth planes end in a 1.5 hour match on the test server. So i thought the hill would be a good fix and it was but I totally forgot that it was meant to be a flat map and I might have made the map worse by moving one of the 2 flags forward encouraging players to build big towers more forward. I will revert the hill change later when I have more time and perhaps remove the flag I put forward entirely or just put it back where it was.

    The bedrock floor being raised is only in mid and this is purely to not get a map that is U which makes maps almost unplayable and its usually something I hear people complain about.

    skipping the punk section because it is very long and I don't have the time right now, I sent punk a message over discord and I hope to have a conversation there because I think its better suited.

    With pork buns the moved flag and so far it has worked really well. The issue you have with the laying stone over it was more or less the issue we had as well with the old flag, in the new spot though it is the player who must put it there and it isn't natural. Moving the flag forward was also because it was a bit too close to the tent which allows people to defend the flag too quickly after they re spawn. also it is easier to take the flag from the side. But perhaps I am wrong on this, I will continue looking on how it works in game.

    I will take a good look at MonsteriCTF2 as I have not noticed that of what you talk about in mid. Perhaps we might be able to keep it like it was.

    Again sorry for the lackluster response but I am out of time. I will make a good big response later today. I thank everyone for the criticism and I think it is going really well. Also I didn't mean to offend anyone with the removed maps section part but I might just have a bit of rage built up.
    Geti, Magmus and franek123 like this.
  17. franek123

    franek123 The architect of the royal castle. Donator Tester

    These outpost lumps are so close to the flag they usually are taked by friendly team or arent captured at all coz of it's placement.
    Here's how this map looks after 30 min usually:
    No middle control. Both sides tunneling. Most of knights fight on flat middle forever. I took that screenshot yesterday. I don't think that's really enjoyable gameplay and that's why the map should be changed. Maybe we could do something else than rising middle, like moving the dirt outposts further to the center?
    Fuzzle and mcrifel like this.
  18. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    You are describing flat maps. They're attrition heavy and you get a lot of tunneling because you need an alternative pathway. They've been requested quite a lot and there's only 1 map that actually fulfils that, if you don't want to play a flat map at the time you can vote to skip.

    As for changes, moving the dirt lumps backward would be maybe preferable? Competent teams are going to capture the nearest hill no matter what, unless it's right at mid (and then you've got the usual mid scramble into defenders attrition) - the map isn't super wide and I think anything further forward just encourages siege spam (more than usual).

    @mcrifel no worries - as I've said here and in other threads there's stuff currently holding a build back anyway so there's no huge rush, though I guess we could upload changes directly to the official servers...

    Agree with doing this through git if possible so people can use the infrastructure there to discuss specific changes and so there's a history of the changes made.
    PUNK123 likes this.
  19. franek123

    franek123 The architect of the royal castle. Donator Tester

    Yeah, but at the same time 80% of kag players are whining about rat wins and ratting at all. Flat maps are won by rats almost always.
    Moving them backwards? They are already close to the tents and easy to cap enough (for team near it), that was my point. If these dirt islands are made to help atackers they should be moved foward. About siege spam, any natural cover that is on middle or just close to the middle makes siege spam less powerfull coz dirt is good protection against it. Siege spam is most powerfull on flat maps. Look at mcrifel_Steppes for example, siege isn't used much at bases there coz of huge protection middle gives. (catas are used to louch knights of course but thats always a thing)
    mcrifel likes this.
  20. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    To clarify:
    I think it's basically pointless moving them away from tents, because (assuming a basic level of competence, dangerous I know) both teams will capture a closer hill at the start of the game no matter how far forward they are, unless they are literally in the middle of the map.

    Moving them closer together just puts them even further "in range" of each other, which encourages firing from one tower to the other instead of moving out. The siege spam stuff was about offensive siege, not defensive.

    This isn't persuasive. You're requesting I remove the one map fulfilling an explicit request by several players (flat maps) because of a separate complaint (ratting). Players who don't like flat maps (for whatever reason) can vote to skip them, it's not a good reason to eradicate variety.

    This would really help the above case and many others.
    PUNK123 likes this.