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A short open letter to THD regarding my official CTF maps

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by 8x, May 28, 2019.

  1. 8x

    8x Elimination Et Choix Traduisant la Realité Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Hello THD,

    The one who writes this is a long KAG traveler, beloved and despised in varying percentages over these last 7 years, creator of a plenty of content, videos, mods and assets in general, official admin, forum mod, and lover of water ammo.

    I was to write a reasoning on my view on the latest shift of winds in KAG development, but I doubt it would gather much interest or add any positive view after all. I will go directly to the point then: I would like, and I am asking for it, that THD or anybody in the name of THD accepts that the CTF/ TTH/ TDM maps I have created or partly created be hosted (if THD puts them in rotation) as they were provided or updated by myself, with no modifications unless accepted by me. I believe this shouldn't be a hard thing for THD tolerate, plus I have enough confidence in the fact that the way they were created is as good as they can get based on the style gameplay they offer.

    Should THD consider that any of the maps I created or partly created are not appropiate enough to be hosted in the official servers in the state I provided them due to whatever reasons, I would ask THD to please remove them from rotation firstly or directly contact me about it.

    Thanks for this long trip however, and see you ingame.
    fuyukikun, Clev, Contrary and 8 others like this.
  2. bunnie

    bunnie Haxor Tester

    it's the 10th fucking time you're saying this - noone cares
    BearKnight likes this.
  3. First off, I understand and I'm sentimental to you - it isn't the best thing to see your baby changed without having a say.

    But if you only partially made it, it isn't fully up to you.

    If the edits were minimal (e.g. more gold because of Quarries) to your maps, I don't see why it is that much of a problem to complain. If the edits were large or terrain changing, I can see why you'd want to be contacted about modifying your map (where if you didn't respond or change the map, THD would do it "for you").

    I guess for me it ultimately depends on what and how the map(s) is/are changed, but that's my 2 cents.
  4. Furai

    Furai THD Team THD Team Administrator

    Hey 8x. We've come a long way, didn't we?

    You're the creator of the maps. We'll take your points into consideration. I'll raise the issue with the rest of the team. Do you have any particular solution in mind? Like exactly how and which maps to change?
    Would you be ok with keeping your unchanged maps as separate maps and new modified ones named differently? Do you have any other ideas?
    As to any further modifications - I can't promise we'd remember to contact you on ever single change if any happen in the future. It's just hard to keep tabs on everything, I hope you understand. And probably it would be up to you to police any changes done to your maps.

    I do care.
  5. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    No one ever suggests changes to your maps, itd be like putting cologne on a turd
    I second this. @mcrifel completely ruined antqueen once upon a time never forget.(the worst changes are the ones that make it an entirely different map).
    I take alot of criticism/input into several of my maps and I still consider it mine. The fact that someone else helped is fine but they're not proposing changes to make the map better, it's someone else who thinks they know better than the original creator.
    In making a ctf res placement dictates deterioration and gameflow. For instance imagine cerberos rift with zero gold? Stale. Imagine cerberos rift with only 50 gold on each side, either all gold gets lost or 1 team ends up with the only siege or quarry and they win the pit battle. With 100 gold on each side gold separation is less important. One issue that came up with @4zK. Was that some of his smaller maps only had 40 gold on each side. Although I think you need to have gold to play the game correctly personally his opinion was that the map would.be ruined with an easy spawn tunnel and a quick midrush to snag enough gold(the mid pit was really strong on said map). If that map has 40 more gold on each side the entire play/flow would be different so resource spread is imo as important as terrain.
    You have hundreds of maps to choose from why the obsession with trying to fix something that people dont think need to be fixed. Ni doesnt touch ctf maps(and I doubt would go editting someone else's work) so can you just tell @Mazey to chill?
    blackjoker77777, 8x and Blubahub like this.
  6. bunnie

    bunnie Haxor Tester

    why do you feel so entitled to your maps? you made it for the game and shared it - it's not your personal map anymore, it's THD's map. it was said 10 times, mazey told you 10 times what you could do about it, and yet you still made a pointless forum post with vague requests. it's like fuzzle asking to remove his 1000 lines of code because 1 line was changed and he doesn't like it.
  7. Let me rephrase. If you are but one of let's say 2 mapmakers, then you do not necessarily have the final say for map changes, assuming THD gives the mapmakers a choice to choose for a particular "problem" (real or not).
  8. Mazey

    Mazey Haxor Global Moderator Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Official Server Admin

    Slightly disappointed we're going to have the same discussion for the fourth time, but alright.
    Just to recap, @8x:

    One of your maps (Gloryhill2) needed a slight increase in width and height. (Whether it was actually needed is a nice topic for another time and place)
    You can see the entire history of the map here. It's fairly short, to elaborate:
    -PUNK123 uploaded the map in January of 2018, as a slightly modified version you made of Gloryhill.
    -Mazey (me) modified the map to have an additional 10 blocks on each side and increased the skybox by 2 blocks.

    About a week later, the first discussion began. You started talking about intellectual property et cetera when the map section clearly states you are giving the map to KAG, the game, allowing modifications to be made. We're not dicks, so I offered you to delete them: upload_2019-5-31_19-38-58.png
    You then ended the changes/removal discussion with:
    As such, I/we moved onto other things, as per your statement accepting the official changes made.

    Around 2 weeks later, you started the discussion again, claiming balance changes (gold, trees, et cetera) were made, which is not true as seen in the history and/or attached image above. We tried to explain to you the only changes made were a slight increase in dimensions, after which you said "thx for the info" and disappeared. Furai and Geti both chimed in on that discussion, but you ignored their opinions/options (including removing the map). Fair enough, going by the "THD changes" quote, you're probably fine with it after all.

    Another 2 weeks later, out of nowhere, you made a (broken) Github pull request. The thread is kind of a mess with quoting something Ni said months ago, but once again I offered you to update the map and then remove it from the mapcycle in good faith:
    To which you replied (final paragraph):
    You said you'd end it there, so we moved on as well.

    I really do not understand why you are making an "open letter" for this, you expressed your opinion in public multiple times and you were offered to have your maps removed not only by me but both Geti and Furai as well. I do not see the point in putting so much effort into these posts because of this. We've offered you exactly what you want, but you decided it wasn't necessary every time.

    Should you approve, I'll update the mapcycle ASAP to have the following changes:
    -Your maps removed from the mapcycle in good faith
    -Your maps modified to be any version you want, resting in peace in the Dormant folder.
    Blubahub, bunnie and 8x like this.
  9. 8x

    8x Elimination Et Choix Traduisant la Realité Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    That's pretty much the point. The way I see it, nor you or Mazey should try to improve any of my maps, due to what ideas you like, or what you believe the moto the maps should serve, and I can say this based on yours and his maps, most of which offer imbalanced gameplay, acute base raping, unnecesseraily tons of gold, slack navigation, gameplay bottlenecks, ...etc. I don't quite mind what peopel do on their servers, but Official is different. What Mazey told me 10 times lead me nowhere outside his interests.

    Getting to play in a server in where one of my maps was modified to offer these possibilites above makes me feel disrespected, plus if the game changes, the maps should change too, but the first stop for that should be the creators themselves deciding to adapt or not the maps for the changing "new meta". I did decide to, and reduced gold + improved the terrain layout here and there.

    It could be an issue of simply caring (leaving aside the scenario of community dev where there's often wrong people taking wrong decisions). And as I actually expected, Furai does care. Being this issue something so small for the game, but kind of personal for me, I take it as an extra effort from your side Furai. I will pm you to continue with the discussion.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 31, 2019, Original Post Date: May 31, 2019 ---
    We were just typing at the same time. The hot point was my latest version, which wasn't posted through github yet accepted by the map mod on that moment. The changes are way deeper than just size, but besides that very map, this is set to establishg a clarification for all map creators in the future, not just to redeem my latest update on GloryHill. This issue will came back everytime to me as I play the game often, and it makes me rather sad to play one of my maps modified to that extent.
    Clev and Fuzzle like this.
  10. Mazey

    Mazey Haxor Global Moderator Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Official Server Admin

    Please clarify what action you want to be taken, because you are once again starting to be vague with what you want, not responding to offers to delete the/your maps and such.
    If you want to take it to DMs you can DM me, Furai mostly deals with other things and I am in charge of community things such as these.
    Cleaf likes this.
  11. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler

    I want my code removed too.
  12. Cleaf

    Cleaf Arsonist Mapping Moderator Tester

    Seems pretty clear to me that, once the map has been accepted, it will keep the name you proposed and will be property of THD.

    I mean, there are a lots of maps out there and a lot of new maps waiting for review, people like changes, the game is changing, the meta shifted alongside the quarry (A LOT), changes are needed to keep the game attractive to new players.
    Magmus, EhRa and bunnie like this.
  13. Vermilicious

    Vermilicious Ballista Bolt Thrower

    I realize, I'm a bit late to the discussion here, but anyways. This is a common issue, I would guess, to any game that has some amount of user-created content. One could argue either way, I suppose, but I would like to ask the (rhetoric) question of what the motivation behind the creation of this content was in the first place - for the love of the game, or for personal benefit. Perhaps it is best to think about that first, when considering how to treat it now and in the future. Lets be honest, fellas. THD is not profiting from this work (anymore), and no one outside the small KAG community would care either way. The game is indeed changing (for better of for worse), but not radically enough for any "new players" to care. It's not a big issue by any means. Instead of arguing about it, lets try to reconcile here. For a content creator to stick around after seven years is, after all, quite extraordinary. Lets not ruin that. It's okay to disagree.
    Blubahub likes this.