Archer changes general

@Geti I'm actually starting to not enjoy it, tbh. Mostly because of three things;

• Water Maps
• Bombs
• Being unable to deal with keg runners

Not saying they necessarily need to be changed (except the keg one, you shouldn't be able to damage it while being carried, instead just damaging the carrier), but they're starting to take the fun out of the game for me.

Not to mention that the archer buff has caused a lot of people to start playing archer, meaning I have to either camp like everyone else, or die to a hail of arrows. (Or switch to knight and just bomb them all to death.. )

 

That is just sad...

 

I WILL ATTEMPT TO KEEP THIS SHORT/SWEET FOR GETI, SORRY HAD TO RETYPE DUE TO A BSOD

Yeah, so I disagreed with him, then said he was free to disagree. What's the problem there? Also leave out the giant reaction image. As much as I like Mel Brooks movies, you already made it clear you fail to understand.

You're reacting to "anecdotal evidence" with more anecdotal evidence; I'm sometimes guilty of storytelling too but at least read my bloody post.

I did try to test it myself beforehand. I'll cede to you guys that Bomb Arrows and Bombs have power variation, but other factors?The Archer has no explosion-blocking Shield, so they won't be shooting at melee range; In practical use, you aren't going to be at melee, so the Bomb Arrow isn't going to be "instantaneous". 2 seconds of flight time, maybe, which also means a longer charge and fire time. That's maybe 4 seconds to charge and fire in gameplay the way you would actually be using the Bomb Arrow. Knights also get way more Bombs for less effort than the Archer needs for 1 Bomb Arrow due to cost, and Bomb Arrows are a rare corpse drop compared to Bombs, so I still see them as comparable to the Bomb. Also, Bomb Arrows fail in water where Bombs can skim across it. The 1 Heart damage is only antipersonnel, while you're saying its power is in anti-structures. If you're using it antipersonnel on Builders/Archers you might as well be using regular Arrows, and if you're using it on Knights they can Shield the explosion.

Sorry, where was the rule again that I have to have 75% of the community's permission before I can make suggestions to the devs? If I only have 74%, am I under and have to delete my account and local copies of KAG? Is that how it works now?

I understand "fun" is subjective. But tell me, do you think it can be somehow indicated by player numbers? Because I'm sure that Archer being the least played class and, as Geti implied, the class with the least amount of mains ["skilled archers are few"], somehow indicates something is wrong with the class either in usefulness, or if not that, in "fun". Sure, my experience of seeing Archers in servers is anecdotal, but does anyone here really honestly see Archer the most or even second most played class themselves?

Geti, I'm definitely not in denial of the fact skilled Archers exist who can rack up kills. But kills alone a #SoloRecker do not make. Builders and Knights have lots of ways of circumventing decently built defences [the usual stone surrounds and door of a TTH Hall or CTF flag room], Archers have one expensive Arrow available which requires kills for them to get and doesn't loot on the battlefield, and then if they break the defences they have 2 HP to get to the objective, at which point Knights will rape them up close. A skilled Archer has less at their disposal than an exactly equally skilled Builder or Knight.

Then Archers really do need to be able to get kills of their own if they're going to be financing Gold intensive Special Arrows to actually be useful.

I know that this one belongs in Knight Balance/Nerf Knights, but would you consider more opportunities for the Knight's nigh impenetrable Shield to be down then-- in water, cooking Bombs, carrying Kegs, Jabbing, post-Slash, even jumping, etc.? And the hitbox really needs a fix too. I DEFLECTED AN ARROW FROM THE FRONT YESTERDAY WHILE SHIELD SURFING.
>Archer is specifically designed primarily as support with a niche in high difficulty close quarters combat. They have a handful of support targetted special ammo, they are able to move around easily to get effective line of sight to provide support from a distance, and they are fragile to encourage keeping a careful distance of melee enemies. CQC archers are also fantastic for capturing the flag.
But "support" entails heals, ammunition replenishes, and stuns. Some ideas I've seen related to that here have been shut down fully, like Heart Arrow [an indeed silly idea anyway]. Isn't Builder the Support, with ammo resupply shops, heavy situational support weapons, defensive and offensive construction to facilitate team-mates moving around bases or invading bases, and health regen shops? The Archer has a Water Arrow, which the Knight also has an equivalent to so the Archer brings nothing new to the table there, and a Legolas shot, which can briefly stun [but not long enough for the Archer to get damage in himself]. Is that what defines a Support from Distance, one brief stun?
And with the whole archetype of Archers being "attack from range", why is the Archer being encouraged to CQC so much if they want kills when they only have 2 HP? For sure, I like to see the Archer's role of base infiltration and mobility, but CQC is ridiculously counter-intuitive for a Ranged class. The Archer in this respect has been given 0.5 the strength of the other classes; they're as useful as 1.5 players while "Supporting" rather than the 2 player usefulness they should be at. The wiki, while a tad old, lists Archer as the Ranged class and the Builder as Support, and I agree with it.

But Geti, muh "volley of Bomb Arrows" that I need to take it down equals 150 Gold gone. And to get that Gold, you need kills aplenty rather than no reward from "supporting" a Knight. That isn't taking it down quickly, because it's unlikely you will have 3 Bomb Arrows stacked beforehand ready to take it out.

I can count only maybe 5 Archer mains taking issue with my suggestions, from what information they've given anyway. That isn't a "lot" to me. I definitely took a look at it from lots of angles. With all respect to a great guy who has to make changes, I know there are people who like the game the way it is, but there are also people who would like it to change too. And they aren't a minority.[/quote][/quote]

 

I tried to be nice in my last post, but the level of absurdity of these attempted rebuttals is going off the charts. The problem, Bobotype, is not only that you're trying to disagree with things that make perfect sense, but also that the ways in which you disagree are just incredibly illogical.

You make a few good points (actually one - Knight shield hitboxes) but otherwise your arguments cannot hold a candle to what the rest of the community is saying.

And at that, I wash my hands of this nonsense. Good day, sir.

 

I was definitely willing, but seeing as so many of the posts are "YOUR IDEAS ARE ABSURD" with no reasons, I honestly can't take them seriously at all.

Clearly you failed to read THE VOTE AT THE TOP OF THE THREAD REQUESTING A CHANGE TO THE ARCHER. I wasn't talking about my own posts specifically, please learn to read.

And that's entirely untrue except for a few situations, you've been giving anecdotal evidence and personally attacking my posts rather than supplying pros and cons, and the actual ideas themselves have been buried in a mountain of shit.

And that's the thing, isn't it? Your ideas make perfect sense, and when I disagree it's illogical because I happen to be disagreeing with you. You can just keep saying my posts don't make sense all day with nothing to back it up, and I'm sure it's working out great for you. After all, it's very easy to just say something with no proof.

Good riddance.

NEW IDEAS:
>Lockpicks for the Archer, seeing as Geti never plans to include Shield piercing, being one of about 4 people who have actually given me any feedback.
>Also more situations where the Shield is down [belongs in Nerf Knights or Knight changes general] so Archers can hit Knights and a better Shield hitbox for Arrows.

Thanks.

 

Yes, the vote was that the archer needed a change. The devs took out arrow slashing, and now top archers are happy. The archer has been changed.

Lockpicks being a way to open doors? I'm afraid archers already have that (bomb arrows).

The only good suggestion here is that the shield hitbox should be fixed. However, many people have already brought this up, so there's no point in reposting.

 

With Archers not having their arrows slashed and whatnot I have been able to do quite a lot with the class now days, if you can't get that shield down then triple shot that Knight, or run off to trick him into making a mistake.

These are comparable to simple strategies I learned back when I took Fencing classes, trick your opponent into giving you an opening, wait for an opening, or MAKE them have an opening.
Not only can you 1v1 a Knight if you have the right timing but you can do it from ranges where he cannot even touch you, ontop of that fire and bomb arrows are some of the most powerful weapons in the game and boy is it rewarding to watch a tower crumble to a well placed triple bombarrow.

Keg on knight and shield hitboxes are really the only major (yet still very VERY minor) issues atm and both are due to bugs.

Archers are for the most part entirely fine and Knights need simple bug fixes, end of story.

 

It's been quite some time since I last played KAG due to my dislike of how archery felt (among other things that made playing archers annoying) but since I found out that arrow slashing got removed I came back and gave it a try.

Have to say, the removal of arrow slashing was a BIG change and an effing welcomed one at that (took you guys bloody long to remove that tumor -.-*). I've been doing pretty good as an archer recently, despite not playing for months and I can say that archery feels better now that random slashes don't fuck up my well timed shots.

Not gonna lie and say I bothered reading all the bible long posts and find out what the arguments are about but as a die-hard archer who has been playing the class for 2 years since alpha and always said that they needed a boost, I have to admit that I'm pretty satisfied about the archer class at the moment.

 

Rrrg wish that I could like it more times.

This is great news, little changes like these are what's needed, no point in making big additions/changes and whatnot.

 

You can't see it but my evil side is grinning right now. Good change.

 

@Geti Nicely handled! Good work and glad to hear the real issues are being handled while the non-issues are being put aside! Also for the most part don't bother reading the tower posts. . . Skim them if you really feel like it but they are generally not worth the read. . .

With the keg issues being looked at and the shield tweaks being made I am going to be a happy crab for a while!

 

I liked the old bomb arrow mechanics ; preparing the enemy for his immenent death.


water arrows are only useful for supporting, or running away (rarely used). The problem is, even if you charge your bow for a tripple shot you gonna shoot 3 water arrows or less. Is it even worth it legolas-shooting 3 water arrows? It 'd be way more useful if you automatically shoot 1 water and 2 normal arrows.

bomb's are the major Achilles' heel for archer.
but I don't see a real problem with water maps; archer vs knight (1vs1) is a pain for the knight if the archer is slightly skilled, except if he uses bombs. I'd just say water maps, especially on CTF, are less enjoyable in general.

 

(INSERT REACTION IMAGE HERE, DON'T WORRY GUYS IT PROVES THAT HE'S WRONG FOR REALS! NOW HE LOOKS DUMB! LOL)

Actually, Trumbles, who from what I hear is a top archer, posted that he definitely wasn't having fun in the current build. The only thing Arrow Slashing really changes is that brief window when the Knight is actually Slashing is now an opportunity for the Archer to hit, and that's like what half a second? Half a second change? Sensible change but not huge at all.

TLDR of why I was suggesting it--less cost than Bomb arrows, can open connected Door tiles to help prevent doorspam or at least spread it out, can be used at melee range by the Archer without hurting themselves, no unexpected cave-ins on your teammates, attracts less attention, allows you to keep Doors after TTH cap

Triple shot stun doesn't have a long enough stun to let the Archer do damage at all.

Unless you're playing against the newest Knight ever, edit that to "ranges where you cannot even touch him, because grapplestomp is your only reliable source of 1v1 damage against a Shielded Knight and it's CQC"

Doesn't a triple bomb arrow take 150 Gold which you normally accrue from getting kills? Aren't kills light on a Support class?

Implying it is minor when shooting a Knight carrying a Keg at the base of your tower causes him to full ALLAHU AKBAR

thank you so much for finally noticing it.
Would it work better as a suggestion if Shields were just really literal to the sprite, so that Archers will be able to hit the head of the Knight even from the front? Of course it can still be countered by jumping or tilting diagonally upward. Not asking for "headshot" xXextra damageXx, though.

It can, but then with all these "easy kills" being netted by Knights [Archer can't do shit if the enemy Knight decides risk/tank 3 Hearts and go for the Slash] where is the Archer getting Gold for their Special Arrows which are supposed to be one of their most useful traits?

As an exclusive reason to play Archer other than Fire Arrow and grappling. This isn't even mobility as much as it a coping mechanism with defences, because the Archer can grapple around all he wants but can't bypass one Wood Door without wasting Bomb/Fire Arrows. I was thinking more "holds open all connected doors until enemies pass them at which point they close again" rather than "converts to team".