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Archers aren't very useful in CTF - Ideas to make them more useful? (or do you disagree?)

Discussion in 'Classes & Mechanics' started by Blue_Tiger, Dec 17, 2016.

  1. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

    Messages:
    899
    Here is a list of current uses for archers in CTF:

    One time uses (i.e. a builder/knight can switch to archer for 5 seconds to do it then switch back):

    • The rush at the start, where 1-2 archers are great at the back to pour water on the flood of enemy knights and builders, this increases the odds of your team taking mid significantly. Problems: After the rush, it's pretty useless. You don't get anything back as an archer from using water, so you end up using maybe 1 water arrow a minute, not that useful considering a good knight can kill all the enemy knights by himself anyway. Also, water is fucking annoying for the people getting wet, I don't think you should really be buffing water.
    • Bomb arrows to go through 1-3 layers of enemy flagbase so you or your team mates can quickly take the flag. Problems: This is often called bullshit by most players (though I don't really agree considering the squishiness of archers). On top of this, a ballista does the same job except is way cheaper in the long run. Archers find it very hard to gain coins, so it is usually a builder switching to archer for 3 seconds just to do it once (Colar likes to do this, he sucks at archer but wins games all day by doing this).
    • Shooting fire arrows on wood if your enemies are completely retarded. Problems: most people aren't retarded enough to build entire bases out of wood. Stone behind doors/platforms makes the maximum fire spread 2 (and usually it's only 0/1).
    • They can move very fast so if the flag is open, you might switch from knight to archer to see if you can grab the flag before a builder closes the flag base. Problems: pretty rare you'd do this.
    • Killing ballistas/catapults as well as using them as a coin-farm from a distance. Problems: it's pretty easy to put a shield up in front of them to stop this.
    Uses of a dedicated archer:
    • Arrow ladders are great for helping knights get up a wall. Problems: you only need 1 archer to do this. A builder is far more useful for doing this.
    • Climb over the enemy bases to switch into other classes to deal damage to the enemy base. Problems: You are literally using the class just so you can get to another place and use another class, that's hardly an archer specific thing. Archers don't have a lot of coins so switching to knight is pretty worthless unless you're good and can farm the enemy's spawning knights to get your keg.
    • Glitching through platforms is very useful if you're trying to grab the enemy flag or get into an enemy's shop for some reason. Problems: It's a glitch, and Geti wants to remove it unfortunately. It was a lot better before when archers could glitch through 1 wide places, it made being an archer actually useful.
    • Just being annoying af by shooting arrows constantly into knights. Problems: Not fun to play against. Not fun to play like as an archer. It is less useful than just being a knight so long as you are actually decent at knight.
    If I missed anything you think is important, please tell me! But I think this is the majority of uses of an archer in CTF. Unfortunately, I believe the best setup for CTF is 1 archer, 30% builders and 70% knights (random numbers, as the great Daskowl would've wanted). This doesn't include the rush where having 2 or maybe 3 archers is useful to make sure you take mid, but considering 99% of the game isn't the rush, this probably doesn't count.

    Anyway, this thread is about brainstorming ways to make archers more useful, and here is what I can think of:

    • Add back the glitching through 1-wide spots. I don't get why this was removed, it was one of the better glitches.
    • Heart arrows! Arrows that work similar to water but hit team mates, not enemies, and heal anyone in the splash radius by one heart. Every time you heal someone, you get +5 coins or whatever.
    • Make it so water arrows give coins when you hit someone, otherwise there is no point in using them outside of a rush unless you're good enough to hit them consistently and hit enough arrows to keep purchasing them. Although I do think you should nerf water arrows since they're annoying af when you're hit by them. Make the stun time last as long as a water bomb and maybe decrease stun radius? Maybe increase cost.
    • Make it so that adding a stone backwall behind platforms, doors and shops does not stop it burning. This is really stupid tbh. It also makes it so archer nests are pretty OP and that can be very annoying for aggressive archers who keep getting shot by archer nesting plebs (who don't do anything for their team really, they are just annoying).
    • Make it so fire arrows do a lot more damage to ballistas and catapults.
    • Make it so bomb arrows are cheaper but do less damage. This would make it so there is no real nerf to bomb arrows but would mean you'd have to play as an archer all the time if you want to keep applying pressure.
    • Increase the amount of coins you get per hit / kill as an archer so you can actually buy special ammo (currently you get coins way faster as a knight or builder).
    Thoughts?
     
    Contrary, Fuzzle and bunnie like this.
  2. BarsukEughen555

    BarsukEughen555 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    434
    very serious criticism:
    why spamming water arrows should give you more waterarrows allowing for the stunloop? imho it rather forces you to stop from spamming them rather then prohibits advanced gameplay
    water arrow = water bomb in stun time, the only difference is there are 2 of water arrows and they are cheaper
    increase cost for water arrows: you say that waterarrows shall give money but shall cost more, wot, it just keeps on expanding the stunloop theme
    stone backwalls are a good thingie as they are now imho, but a little buff for fire arrows sounds nice
    fire arrows deal more damage to catapults/ballistas: imho this will be either a useless feature still or very OP now, but could make the buckets and sponges a little more important in terms of forward usage
    bomb arrows cheaper but more damage > turns them into the anti-infantry ammo rather then wall-piercing, may stop archers from causing serious damage at all then, but once again depends on balance
    heart arrows - pls no
    also, give knights some love, 99% of their job is go into the battlefield and cut eachother :(
    much walltext
     
  3. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

    Messages:
    899
    Water bombs have less stun duration than water arrows. I would like it if water arrows stun time was reduced so that you cannot stun lock someone (they have a chance to avoid the second arrows, remember knights can shield water if it doesn't hit them directly). I want water arrows to give coins because, as an archer (I know you've never played archer in your life), you have no real incentive to buy water unless you're a team player (or a troll of course) since they don't give you any income back. Tbh, this whole water arrow nerf and buff was just a suggestion and probably my least favourite of the ones I listed.

    Why are stone backwalls a good thing? What do they add to the game? Wooden doors and platforms are strong enough already considering everyone spams them everywhere. People should be using stone doors on the things they need protecting the most, and the archer nests caused by stone platforms are pure cancer for the game. It's just a place where some noob can sit for the entire game, annoying knights and forcing people to go into tunnels.

    Fire arrows dealing damage to ballistas doesn't have to be OP or useless, just make it so that it deals about 2/5 as much damage as bomb arrows. (Slightly more per coin because you have to wait for it to burn out after every arrow for max damage and the ability for the enemy to put it out for water).

    What is wrong with the heart arrow idea? It will make it so archers are more focusing on supporting their team than annoying the enemy, which is what they should be doing as a support class.

    Knights don't need love. Knights are the most useful part of any CTF match. A good knight can completely turn around a match. This cannot be said for archers, and not often for builders. 99% of what knights do is fighting on the battlefield is BS, they are the main source of destruction with bombs/kegs. Also, 99% of what archers do is chill at the back shooting arrows - at least that's what they do if you play efficiently like Elionne does (not that doing that is more efficient than switching to knight and killing people).

    And by the way, I'm not being biased. I play more knight and builder than archer nowadays and that is why I made this thread. I love the archer class and it's a shame that it is so useless.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2016
  4. TheSyncRow

    TheSyncRow Base Burner

    Messages:
    11
    It is a good idea to get more money as archer since I normally get money as knight or builder and than become an archer to purchase arrows.
    I'm not really too sure but maybe have an extra inventory slot for normal arrows only and allows up to 60 arrows, they do run out quite quickly.
    Like normal bombs, bomb arrows should be able to have at least a bit of a knock back effect, since they expensive and for most of the time, is only useful to destroy blocks.
     
  5. Coroz

    Coroz B R B Donator Tester Official Server Admin
    1. [AG#] - Ancient Gear

    Messages:
    140
  6. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

    Messages:
    899
    I dunno man. I want to make archer more useful and more fun, but the idea of being able to carry 180 arrows doesn't seem to help with either of those. It would just mean you can sit at the back spamming arrows for longer without having to return to base :P.

    As for bomb arrows, I only see the AoE effect helping the enemy since team mates cannot bomb jump on your explosives and you don't have a shield as an archer to bomb jump with. Not really sure where you're going with that.

    Not sure how this would make archers more useful. Maybe it'd make them stronger in an archer vs. knight matchup but not more useful. I also don't agree with the change either since you can deal with knights who shield with a bomb in their hand, you just have to stun them, grapple around them and be unpredictable. If you're good you can even make them blow themself up.

    You have to remember that archer is a support class, not a combat class, so I don't agree with nerfing knights to make archers more useful.
     
  7. SlayerSean

    SlayerSean FYI: it's pronounced "seen"

    Messages:
    191
    I don't know how you play archer but I wouldn't say it's difficult to get coins. Just by playing archer on/near the front lines I can easily gather up enough coins for some fire arrows or a bomb arrow in an average life, and enough for 2 or 3 bomb arrows if all goes very well out front. And honestly I see no issue with stone backwalls stopping the spread of fire. It would be nice if fire could do a *little* bit more, so 1 fire arrow can open a 2-tall passage allowing your team through or something like that, but to nullify the effect and make fire spread like normal would make wooden doors and wooden platforms almost entirely useless outside of tunneling.

    Oh and I can't help but point out...
    I fail to see how continuously shooting the enemy, as archer, makes you useless to your team. Please explain this logic, since I thought the main point of an archer was to shoot the enemy? ;) If you don't like getting shot...move out of the way. Don't try and change game mechanics to stop archers from being able to shoot people, because that's what archers do. They shoot people. And removing this would do little anyway, since it just means they'll hide in their nests until it's burned and then use a door until a builder repairs it, and so the problem has not been solved anyway.
     
    Blubahub likes this.
  8. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

    Messages:
    899
    I play aggressive archer or support archer (depending on mood) and yes it is very hard to get coins, at least in comparison to knights and builders. A knight can get a keg and 4 bombs worth of coins in 20 seconds if she is good. An archer has to spend 5 minutes to get a couple bomb arrows.

    You have to mix wood with stone to make it so fire doesn't spread. Put one layer of wooden doors, one layer of stone doors, the same way most people build blocks in flag bases. You can also put blocks of stone every few platforms. Etc.

    Archers shooting from their base in an archer nest cannot stun the enemy knights, cannot get behind towers to hit builders, etc. The only people they can shoot is enemy archers. It makes them useless because they just turn useless enemy archers into builders/knights which are useful.

    I like archers being able to shoot people (I don't understand your point here), my problem comes when someone can sit invincibly behind a platform shooting and annoying people. They should have to come out and fight like men and get shot in the head. If they are using a door, you can still shoot them.
     
  9. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    Disclaimer: I generally multiclass.

    I'm not sure I agree with this one. An archer hit squad of 2-4 competent archers is an enormous multiplier on top of any forward knights and they have an easier time defending builders as well. "Not fun to play" is subjective, I'd say it's more hard to get enough competent players to go archer to make it work. "Not fun to play against" is the same as playing against a lolsolorekt knight, doubly so in the case of ones that go for spawn camping over flag caps.

    This is one of the saltiest things I've heard all day, haha. In a team game with building of course there are going to be campy strategies, and while I prefer forward archer play, I'd rather be able to corral my spud players into a semi-useful defensive position than have them attempt mlg forward action before they've mastered shooting and heck, walking.
    A forward ballista beats an archer nest anyway.

    I agree that archer income might be a bit low, but builder income is way too high and it seems like a lot of pub knights have trouble making money too - it's just the ones with >2kdrs who can further pad their income with keg drops that make bank.

    I like the thread that you're pulling, but I'm not really convinced by your solutions.


    ...I'd also say that some of this is caused by the general animosity between players that main archer, and players that don't; "faggot archer" "annoying bitch campers" "omg bomb arrows are bullshit archers are noobs" etc are common refrains that don't help that attitude much, especially when at least 50% of the time archers do thankless support work while knights "secure" their kills.
     
  10. EhRa

    EhRa Ooooooof Staff Alumni Donator
    1. KRPG

    Messages:
    810
    I don't see what the problem is with camping archers. The archers help their team. They are killing or hitting anything they can, creating basically a no mans land (if no cover). The fact that they kill you removes your fire power from the battlefield.

    One point I do agree on is water arrows giving some coins back, atleast for hitting someone.
     
  11. RedOTheWisp

    RedOTheWisp Shark Slayer Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    31
    While this is true for the most part, and I have no problem with camping, it should be done in the right situations. Many a time have I watched an archer sit in a nest for the entire game, not moving at any point, simply to rack up the K/D ratio, so I do agree with Tiger to some extent that overly campy archers are unpleasant to play against.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2016
    Blue_Tiger likes this.
  12. toffie0

    toffie0 is sweeter than you <3 Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

    Messages:
    345
    Archers: Knights are op and archers need a boost or the other way arouns

    Knights: Archers are op and knights need a boost or the other way around

    Builder: SAVE ME!!!
     
  13. enderzilla747

    enderzilla747 Arsonist Tester

    Messages:
    104
    *Real Life?* Archers in the back, shooting legions of arrows at enemy army. Yay. Good work. *Archers in KAG* GRAHH STOP CAMPING STUPID NUB FUCK TO YOU.
     
    Magmus likes this.
  14. neil58

    neil58 Ballista Bolt Thrower Staff Alumni
    1. Zen - [Zen] - (Invite Only)

    Messages:
    99
    tldr; archers are generally useful but aren't important in winning games, especially at a competitive level


    disclaimer *I glossed along the replies so people might've already mentioned what I said*

    Generally, I prefer to play archer constantly and most of the stuff you have said is valid. For the most part, archers are generally annoying pieces of shit who can't do much, resorting to camping behind platforms. Even so, there are a couple of valid uses.

    1. Whenever I can, I hop around the map and exclusively attempt to kill builders. This helps slow down the advance of enemies along w/ stealing mats and being an annoying shit

    2. When I die, I check out the enemies base to see if there are any weak points. If I find any I just plan out what arrows I need and dick around until I collapse a structure or whatever (this can lead to surprise caps)

    3. In a knight infested game, you can join the horde and spam half shots from behind them.

    4. Go find a cata (ballis are too annoying) and spam quarter shots in order to get a fuckton of coins

    5. Perform a suicide mission into the other team's base in order to destroy saw farms (you can shoot them through the tiny holes on the top)

    6. Burn down shops

    7. Just exist to counter other archers since knights generally can't reach them (archers exist to kill each other)

    8. During enemy rushes, you can focus/kill builders from a distance versus knights who have to plow through the other team to get them.

    9. Use your grapple to use the enemies kegs against them or archer keg that shit

    10. Farm coins by shooting a balli in order to use bomb arrows to destroy it

    11. Transport mats from the frontlines to builders

    12. Camping on top of towers to fuck up the other team w/ quarter shots

    (Those are some things I could think of off the top of my head)

    Campy archer are pretty annoying but I doubt there's much we can do about it without severely changing the gameplay mechanics. Also, it is sorta a pain to get money for archer but I doubt adding coins for shooting water arrows is gonna be beneficial. It would probably be better to just increase the overall amount of coins an archer can gain so they don't start favoring water.
     
  15. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

    Messages:
    899
    Disclaimer: I also multiclass.

    2-4 archers + a knight is great and all, but I think 3-5 knights are way better. Especially when you assume the archers are competenet, if you have 3 competent knights, you can have one guy shielding the front and the other two slashing from the back. But let's not forget, in pubs, having 2 competent players on a team basically already guarantees the win because most players aren't very good.

    I never said archer nests should be removed! They should just be nerfed so I don't have to spend 50-100 coins on bomb arrows to get rid of it, just 30 coins on a couple fire arrows. A builder can always come and repair it.

    A no man's land stops people fighting on the surface and forces them underground. Tunneling is hated by most people in KAG, including me. It's the same reason why I hate siege.

    Nice like farm, except you didn't read anything I wrote. Where did I ever say knights were OP? I just said that archers are less useful in CTF format.

    Real life combat is boring. Just look at BF1 and how different that is to the real WW1. Would you like to play a WW1 simulator?
     
  16. Coroz

    Coroz B R B Donator Tester Official Server Admin
    1. [AG#] - Ancient Gear

    Messages:
    140
    The main problem i get is that tomany players want to go archer in ctf, you see it alot , 4 archers spamming arrows from their tower even if they dont need to defend it. So i have to go knight because of it. Also with the coin thingy, the good players get even more coins when you upgrade the income. making them stronger. the weaker players can only camp or die in the battlefield and lose most coins because they have kdr below 1. you only need a few archers in ctf or it gets campy. upgrading archer would mean ctf's full with archers. Already tomany players play archer because i gues its alot of fun.
    Most players dont give shit about the team untill its to late. so they stay builder or archer even if the full team is the same class as that person.
    What is the ideal setup for ctf 10vs10 , 6 knights 2 builders 2 archers or something like that. Also in cw you most of the times see teams 3/4 knights 1/2 builders or 1 archer instead of the builder. they are a specialist class. you dont need alot of them.

    I do wanne try out a cw battle with archers vs knights. maybe with team work the archers can win. 2archers spamming water arrows the other 2 stomping and shooting the knights.

    I wanted to type way less then this, i gues i got carried away:oops:
     
  17. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

    Messages:
    899
    Yeah, there's a lot of kinda useful stuff in the list. That's why you have that single archer in a match. I just would like it if it was good to have more than a single archer in a match.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 18, 2016, Original Post Date: Dec 18, 2016 ---
    In FoD we wanted to make an archer-only (or mainly) squad. We planned to wait for the enemy to be ratting to our flag, change our team to 3 archer, 1 builder, 1 knight and have the knight/builder protect the flag while the archers filled with water and bomb arrows sneak to the enemy flag to steal victory.

    Never worked :C.
     
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  18. Coroz

    Coroz B R B Donator Tester Official Server Admin
    1. [AG#] - Ancient Gear

    Messages:
    140
    I actualy think the main reason archers exist in ctf is to be flagrunner. combined with bombarrows they can go in and out and cap the flag in a matter of seconds.
     
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  19. TheSyncRow

    TheSyncRow Base Burner

    Messages:
    11
    With the extra slot idea I was thinking that it only allows normal arrows and the original four slots accommodates the special arrows and other stuff like bombs for knight, stone for builders and etc.
    I also think the knock back effect should be useful like when a knight climbs the edge of a tower and your bomb arrow can push them off and kill them from a height :P. They could also help with pushing back a siege weapon off a tower but also taking into account your idea of them doing less damage as it takes two to obliterate a ballista or catapult.
     
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  20. Coroz

    Coroz B R B Donator Tester Official Server Admin
    1. [AG#] - Ancient Gear

    Messages:
    140
    knights have the spacebar to perform a action, bombs , kegs etc.
    Maybe give archer the sticky bomb . i would love it to plant one of those on a knights head. and see it go off.

    edit: i also think fire arrows suck tomuch against good builders. because of stonebackground. it doesnt make alot of sense to me why 4 wooden doors cant get burned because of stonebackground.
     
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