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Tweaks Bomb Tweaks

Discussion in 'Modding [KAG]' started by Sinleet, Mar 17, 2014.

  1. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    Not interested tbh. Someone can run trials of it if they like on their server, but I'm not sold.
     
  2. Sinleet

    Sinleet Shipwright

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    Yeah and so is arrow slashing, but isn't that more of a network issue?

    ps: I tag you because I want your body, do you hold that against me?
     
  3. Trumbles

    Trumbles Bison Rider

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    458
    How is arrow slashing a network issue? Swords literally damage arrows. I'm not privy to kag code, and thus wouldn't be able to find that myself, but I'd assume it's the case, since @Rayne removed it in his mod.

    As for this tweak, I'm on the fence. Bomb-deflecting, arrow slashing, these mechanics are often done completely at random. They have the possibility of being done purposefully, but (especially in the case of bomb deflection), the skill level required to do that is through the roof. (I don't know anybody who can reliably hit in-flight bombs, I only manage to do it once every few games, myself)

    The problem, in my opinion, is that arrows can interact with bombs that are already on the ground, thus this would be too punishing to enemy archers and builders, who get killed because they have a stupid/careless knight.

    I like to see this kind of promotion of skillful play, but... I'm not entirely sure this is for the best.

    By the way, @Sinleet, I think you linger too much on grammar. His argument was perfectly understandable from my point of view.
     
    Rayne likes this.
  4. Sinleet

    Sinleet Shipwright

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    36
    Alright, I'm hosting a server with the mod currently, 10 players only, will be running it for most of the day. server name is 'Linguini's'
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
  5. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

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    1,916
    i think arrow slashing is dumb too, so i removed it from my mod.

    things like this literally require no skill, because there's no reliable way to replicate the action, it's completely random, based on luck.

    while shooting bombs on ground can be replicated, its not really a skillful action, it's basically "lol your knight was dumb, so now your entire team should suffer for it" when only that knight should suffer for being dumb.

    i'd think shooting bombs and making them explode prematurely would be a better idea for a mod, but then again, i dont think arrows and bombs should collide at all.
     
  6. Sinleet

    Sinleet Shipwright

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    36
    When I made this mod I didn't know arrow slashing was slated to being removed--I've always like the concept of it, so I'm sad now to hear it is.

    Personally I think this mod is not as random as people say it is. It may seem to them that way because bombs and arrows move too fast for them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
  7. ZeroZ30o

    ZeroZ30o Bison Rider

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    119
    "For them"
    Good luck hitting a bomb floating in water without being on the same horizontal position.
    Yes, it is possible, but it's either random or rare. Or simply, there are no archers that do that on the majority.
     
  8. Sinleet

    Sinleet Shipwright

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    36
    It's rare that archers have talent yes, this is not a low level buff, this is a buff for high level play.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 18, 2014, Original Post Date: Mar 18, 2014 ---
    you could join the server and see how random it is
     
  9. zerd

    zerd Arsonist
    1. SIEGE Clan - SIEGE

    Messages:
    47
    I am surprised to see a lot of arguments being made around "Archers are not skillful enough to (deserve to) take advantage of this buff". Rather than "This would would ruin game mechanics".

    If hitting bombs with arrows is a skill we want archers to pursue, then i don't see why we should not make it viable in more situations, like when the knight who tossed the bomb is not around anymore.

    Regarding raging builders getting killed randomly by bombs backfiring, is that really worse than archers having to choose between trying to deflect a bomb into his teammates, or eating the damage themselves?
     
    Sinleet likes this.
  10. Sinleet

    Sinleet Shipwright

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    36
    First video of two showing just how random it is to shoot at bombs.
    First video shows 26/27 bombs hit. Something interesting to note is that the bomb that didn't get hit had had 2 arrows fired at it.

    Second video shows 13/14 bombs hit.

    This combines to over a 95% hit rate. Still think it can't be skill based?
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2014
  11. wow, you can shoot 27 times at the same spot, im shocked

    honestly, arrows shouldnt collide at all with each other, bombs, kegs, ballista bolts and catapult stones. all these collisions together with arrow slashing are purely random and not fun at all.
     
    ZeroZ30o likes this.
  12. Sinleet

    Sinleet Shipwright

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    36
    it's like you're not even trying

    I've shown that under ideal conditions bombs have a great chance of being hit by arrows. In a real game are you going to hit those bombs with the same chance? Of course not, because your opponent is actively trying to avoid that. Arrows and bombs have a small hitbox, and they move so fast they are not going to hit eachother very often unless the archer has a good read on his enemy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2014
  13. ZeroZ30o

    ZeroZ30o Bison Rider

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    119
    And those ideal conditions are generally during bombjumps, which are alredy countered by shooting an arrow to either the bomb or the knight itself. Which is why I don't get it.
     
  14. Sinleet

    Sinleet Shipwright

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    36
    It's not hard to body block your bombs, if you're bomb jumping and archers are shooting at you, you're more likely to die from arrow spam.
     
  15. ZeroZ30o

    ZeroZ30o Bison Rider

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    119
    That's not my point. A well timed arrow will disable any knight from bomb jumping, since I believe it makes a mini stun on hit. My point is that they can alredy counter it easily.
     
  16. Tizmiz

    Tizmiz Horde Gibber Tester

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    I love the moments when I randomly fire at a knight with a triple shot and block his bomb, now I might get a quad? Sweet!

    /sarcasm
     
  17. Sinleet

    Sinleet Shipwright

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    36
    I love when I randomly move around and randomly slash and randomly kill someone!

    /sarcasm

    fix this broken game!!! True random should fail every time!!! Never praise randomness!!!1 Never give actions so that randomness may do them!!!
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2014
    zerd likes this.
  18. Apronymous

    Apronymous Bison Rider

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    326
    @Trumbles
    Any sage advice on the practicality of shoot bombs in normal circumstances?
    Like, not normal gameplay, just going for the bombs. But with the bombs being in less unusual and more varied plazces than this "demonstration".
    Edit: Rewording for clarification.
    (The wording used to be much worse)
     
  19. Trumbles

    Trumbles Bison Rider

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    458
    From the way I see it.. It's nigh impossible to deflect 10/10 bombs mid-flight, in a normal gameplay situation. At long ranges, the knight will throw the bomb before you've fully drawn your bow. At close ranges, shooting the bomb effectively does nothing, and dodging/shooting the knight himself is the better alternative.

    If you were already drawing before a knight pulled out a bomb, yes. You would have the chance to deflect the bomb, potentially hurting/killing the knight himself. (Edit: Getting kill credit for this would be nice)

    However, in the time it takes for you to aim and shoot, you'll likely die to the bomb if you miss, thus simply running/juking is much more viable.

    Also, deflecting a bomb can throw off your team's perception of where it will land. This is an issue, as a builder might think he's safe, only to have a bomb stop mid-air and land on his head.

    To that end, @Sinleet 's proposed tweak would make deflections a much more viable/sensible thing to do, as you would be able to protect your teammates from harm instead of potentially throwing them off.

    That said, this mechanic would be extremely confusing to people who have not heard of it. They would think "My knight threw a bomb, it got deflected, but it's still our team's bomb, right?", and walk over it without a care in the world. It could potentially cause a lot of frustration.

    So, my position on the viability of this tweak is firmly in the middle...

    Edit: Would bombs still be target-able while on the ground, @Sinleet? If so, I could see this tweak being somewhat overpowered. It's extremely easy to hit a bomb on the ground, so you could simply "defuse" every uncooked bomb that gets thrown at your team. This is an issue, in my opinion. Would also interfere with allied knights trying to bomb-jump with enemy bombs.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
    Sir_Walter and Apronymous like this.
  20. Sinleet

    Sinleet Shipwright

    Messages:
    36
    Here's the mod now with an updated bomb png. The bomb will explode with the color of the team. However, particle colors are only working for blue and red team. This should remove any doubt whether the bomb has switched ownership.

    @zerd
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
    zerd, Ej, Trumbles and 1 other person like this.