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Breaking Fire Arrows

Discussion in 'Balance' started by Duplolas, Jun 11, 2014.

?

Add the ability to break fire arrows?

  1. Yes

    33.3%
  2. No

    66.7%
  1. Dargona1018

    Dargona1018 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    569
    I wish there WAS an alternate way to actually destroy the Fire Arrows.
    After all, you don't always have access to water, on TTH you don't research water arrows or water bombs so you get screwed, and knights can't break the block fast enough to stop the flames from spreading.
    They nerfed kegs (ability to make them drop it) so they weren't inevitable, I think they should do the same with fire arrows (AKA the new inevitable game-ruiners).
    • If you are low on resources, the map is old. Not that you suck. I have played many maps where you just can't access stone, so you use wood. It's either that or lose the game.
    • Some Default maps don't have much water, if any. So now, you are saying that the maps suck. Okay.

    I don't want to say that I agree because then people would probably focus more on that statement and not realize the actual context of this thread.
    But I still agree!
     
    Duplolas likes this.
  2. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    I just think it's dumb to be able to break the fire arrows when it's already so easy to stop with water or stone. Honestly, if you're out of stone, the game should hopefully end soon anyways, so fire will hopefully bring a swift end to one team. That's the point of fire arrows, not so they can be useless against any competent person who walks by.
     
    Sir_Walter likes this.
  3. Dargona1018

    Dargona1018 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    569
    The only thing is, though, that most people don't think like that.
    They see a Fire Arrow, and they panic.
    They don't don't think logically, like changing wood to stone, breaking the block first, or having water somewhere close, so for most not-so-elite people, there is no way to destroy it.
    Almost every other thing in the game is destroyable in some way or another. And this shouldn't be an exception.
     
  4. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    Bomb ballistas, catapults firing a multitude of things, bomb arrows, water arrows, water bombs, Yagger, there's plenty of things that can't be stopped. Also, fire can be stopped with a well-prepared bucket.
     
    Sir_Walter likes this.
  5. Dargona1018

    Dargona1018 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    569
    But, as I said, I literally have NEVER seen ANYONE with a bucket of water on a traditional server on a traditional map, at least not in a couple months. And I have played over 250 hours, so you would think that I would have at least seen it once.
    This makes me believe that it isn't common knowledge.
    I don't know how good you are, Auburn, but I think that you probably aren't the majority of builders who don't know much.
     
  6. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    917
    Players just do not use buckets. Even if there is a fire, do you have enough time to get a bucket and stop the fire before it spreads?

    No. No you don't.

    @Auburn

    I don't think you can honestly say that in the past month you have used, let alone seen anybody using buckets more than maybe once.

    I haven't even seen a bucket in over a month, and I play probably about as much as you do.

    Water arrows and water bombs are rarely ever used. I seem them maybe once a week in ctf.

    Also, I didn't even mention it yet, but if you break a block that has been shot with a fire arrow, the fire still spreads even though the block isn't there anymore. It is more of a bug, but still...
     
    Dargona1018 likes this.
  7. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    I see buckets used about as frequently as I see fire singlehandedly destroy a base; rarely. Most of the time I don't see fire turn the tides of battle, and when it does turn the tide, there's usually a keg or well timed knight rush accompanying the fire. But I still don't see why a nerf is needed for fire arrows when if you build smart, fire can't do more than a few blocks of easily repairable damage.
     
  8. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    Kegs were "nerfed" because they didn't have any reasonable counter. Fire has multiple reasonable counters, available to all classes (water bombs, water arrows, buckets, cutting the block out/replacing it), and also has avoidance/mitigation strategies available (fireproofing, fire breaks, buckets in the walls, etc).

    Being able to simply break fire arrows would mean that you would have to set fire to areas out of reach of the team you're shooting (spectacularly counter-intuitive) or kill them all before burning anything (annoying for an archer). I dont think it's a good solution to anything.

    Fire being able to burn down a base that's made entirely of wood helps prevent stalemates after stone extinction and means that builders need to optimise to minimise fire damage. I do not see the current incarnation of fire as a problem.

    I see TTH's design as a minor problem here because it can lead to cases where due to a decision made sometimes over an hour ago, a team is screwed over by a tech they didn't account for; that said, that's honestly a strategic flaw on their part - deal with it.
     
  9. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    917
    I can't say I disagree with everything you say, mainly because I still think the system As-Is, is OK. But when you say "Fire has multiple reasonable counters," yes, they are "reasonable," but seldom used. I play primarily CTF. I never see buckets. However, I do see water arrows and bombs every-so-often, but they still are rarely used.

    When they are used, it for sure isn't on buildings on fire. The only items bought in CTF are bombs, bomb arrows, and kegs. Everything else just isn't worth the gold really.

    You also say that you can break the block and replace it... I tried that recently and it didn't work. The fire still managed to spread. The arrow stayed in the air, attached to an invisible block, and then it spread.

    I do agree with you that fire can end late game stalemates quickly, but in cases of mid game battles where quickly built structures in the middle of the battlefield are easily susceptible to fire arrows, they can just as quickly take it down with no chance of it being stopped.

    Building technique is also just as important, good builders do indeed know how to fire proof.

    So after thinking about everything you have said, and others have said... I suggest this:

    Allow for explosions, that means bombs and bomb arrows, to dislodge arrows if it doesn't blow up the block itself.

    That then requires skill to throw the bomb. Money to spend on the bomb. And it is less easy to break the arrow.

    Thoughts?
     
  10. no midgame structures should be "susceptible to fire arrows". If yours are, learn to play better
     
    Sir_Walter and Kouji like this.
  11. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    This is outrageously false. Water arrows are the highest volume archer ammo for sure. I tend to buy two bombs, a water bomb and a mine if I have the coin each life. Buckets are the underutilised hard counter to fire and they're only underutilised because people don't think to use them, not because they aren't effective per unit cost.
    @Gurin @-Crimson- @Arcrave (lol) @Yagger confirmation here re: stuff that gets bought is welcome.

    Re: explosions dislodging arrows - that would basically turn normal powder explosives into fire extinguishing aids?

    I don't disagree that cooking a bomb to explode nearby would take a bit of skill, but honestly it would look like griefing, especially with bomb arrows. I don't see what's hard about springing 20c for water arrows or 30c for a water bomb if you know/suspect the enemy is packing fire and you have susceptible buildings.
     
  12. -Crimson-

    -Crimson- Haxor

    Messages:
    108
    Water bombs are extremely useful early game!
    I always carry water bombs when we're about to push because its helpful
    and gives our team an advantage, especially in CTF's first flag rush.
    Their useful all around in general, you can easily put pressure on enemy knights with a few splashes and let your team mates clean up, and they're great for an escape tactic.
     
    Auburn likes this.
  13. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    917
    They are good to use in combat.

    Where is combat typically found?

    Not in your base. Thats where.

    And as you said, they are extremely useful early game.

    Mid to Late game is the time when standard bombs are bought the most. Bomb jumping. Breaking into bases. And so on. Yes, they are sometimes used for crowd control when all of their knights are bunched up at your base, but that only stuns. You then have to jump down, leaving a chance for another non-stunned knight to attack you.

    Bombs late game do burst damage and when there are crowds of enemies at your front door, having something that you can throw from a distance and do damage with, something that costs less than the alternative, and doesn't cause you to have to jump into the death pit of enemies, is picked over the other.

    Fire arrows are extremely useful late game.

    You see what I am getting at?

    I rarely am ever hit by water arrows. Even with the newest update where there is an influx people playing archers, it still isn't very common. They may be the highest volume archer ammo, but how often and when are they used?

    Sure in TTH where they are supplied to you free of charge, but in CTF, most archers save their money and buy bomb or fire arrows. They may be more expensive, but they help your team push. Yes water ammo stuns players and can help push to the enemy base, but once you get to the wall, what are you going to do now?

    Also, 20c is a lot more cheap than 30c or 50c, especially early game when water equipment is used most as Crimson said in his post. Fire and bomb arrows are not needed early game because structures are not entirely built yet.

    Cheap and used early game. That is why water equipment is used.

    As for explosions dislodging arrows... Yes, it could look like griefing, but so does bomb jumping. And in most cases, when bomb jumping from your base, you destroy a block unless you jump beforehand. But not many players do that. That is done regularly, so I don't see how throwing a bomb up in the air during a fight will make anyone stop and try to kick them. Especially when, over time, people will realize what it is actually doing.

    There isn't anything hard about buying water ammo. That is true. But when a building is about to go up in flames, and you only have 3 seconds to stop it from igniting, all you can use is the equipment in your inventory then and there. There isn't anywhere close to enough time to buy something to put out the flame with.

    On paper, buying water ammo to put out fires is a no brainer, but in-game, in the chaos that is KAG, there is going to be almost no chance of putting out that fire unless you can use something you have on you then and there.
     
  14. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    You and I seem to be playing a different game. I get shot with water at least once per play session, usually multiple times. When I'm archer I tend to buy at least 2, often 4 water arrows for easy support, dousing flag carriers, and extinguishing fires. I see most other archers packing water for both base defense and forward archer play. I'm very surprised to hear you don't see them often.

    ? ? ? More like bunched up at the front of someone's base, other than in the initial rush.

    To reiterate: I routinely see people using both, regardless of the stage of the game.