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Buckets as unique water bombs

Discussion in 'Balance' started by Koveltskiis, Nov 1, 2017.

  1. Koveltskiis

    Koveltskiis Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    33
    //EDIT: moved from Build 2374 - New Maps and More Contributions as per king gatu's instructions. ~fbb//
    As a suggestion for a long term change, making buckets more of a unique water bomb:noburu::builder::noburu:. I've created a list of changes I think would be interesting, but I am absolutely fine if they stay the way they are.:chicken::bucket::chicken:
    • Bucket's now cost 15-30 wood and 20-30 coins Makes them harder to build. Cost clearly defines the item as a utility and a side-grade to water bomb/arrows
    • Bucket use now stuns the user if they are in the splash Fire is now harder to put out without other builders.
    • Bucket use now stuns enemies caught in the splash It sounds ridiculous but there are a number of points that balance it.
    Reasoning
    1. I believe builders should have more support and pressure tools. These changes should not change the role of the class, only giving more unique options (and fixing water item inconsistency :wink:)
    2. Using it at short range only delays nearby enemies if you are solo. When used with nearby allies you can kick a lot of butt :knight::builder::spam: However, you are still a builder in the open and must be escorted, and more enemies can walk in while you are stunned.
    3. A clever person may realize that a thrown bucket still splashes, negating the self stun! :eek::noburu::no: However this mechanic is already tuned into the game as buckets that are thrown break upon landing after the splash (much like water bombs:teabag:)
    4. Sponges reduce water stuns (good change ::):) If they do get spammed to high hell sponges can be used to significantly offset the stun duration.
    5. Builders can defend their structures (or at least slow down the destruction:X3:)
    I would like to see these tested but you can decide if it's worth it or not. I understand you're working on the new game mode and would not be disappointed if you scrap them or save them for later ::):
    I appreciate your work and dedication to KAG Getti and hope everything goes well:heart:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2017
  2. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,720
    I'd love to see a different thread discussing this, as it will get lost in this thread.

    We used to have buckets stunning people and it was commonly used for trolling/griefing. I'd be interested in the option again though if people can figure out a way to mitigate the ability to walk around stunlocking team-mates, and to mitigate their competition with water bombs. I believe you can throw buckets much further currently, as they don't use the bomb physics behaviour. It must be remembered that not only builders can use them, as well.
     
    Koveltskiis likes this.
  3. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

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    Done; o captain, my captain. o7

    {edit}
    Also, just saying, but having another tool (stunning enemies with your bucket) could actually help the builder meta a lot, as it means you've got several varieties of tricks to use when rushing an enemy fortification---adding "buy myself a few seconds while my backup arrives" to the standard "drill, nill, or crazy tramp act" choices. :boulder:

    Obviously stunning oneself is a necessary evil, to stop it being a gimmicky wank of a mechanic. Thinking further though, perhaps only stunning yourself and enemies when held (to prevent abusing team-mates, plus makes aiding your knights possible, just a tad suicidal/needing good teamwork---which is great for skill cap) and, when thrown, working like smaller waterbomb (i.e. to prevent it being a just a better waterbomb, have it stun non-shielding allies when thrown)?

    Idk. Just throwing ideas out there bc it feels like an idea I could get excited about. :dance:
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017
    kodysch likes this.
  4. kodysch

    kodysch Ballista Bolt Thrower Staff Alumni
    1. Archers [Arch] (Recruiting)

    Messages:
    452
    Maybe have the stun only last a 1/4 second, just enough to interrupt a charged shot or slash. I think the self-stun is a must.
     
  5. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

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    Any thoughts on how that would interact with sponges?
     
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  6. butterscotch

    butterscotch Ballista Bolt Thrower Official Server Admin Tester
    1. Multi Adept Janissary's that are Overly Relentless - MAJOR - (Recruiting)

    Messages:
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    Hell yes. I've been wanting this to happen for so long.
     
    Koveltskiis likes this.
  7. FoxyLady

    FoxyLady Drill Rusher Staff Alumni

    Messages:
    182
    I think its pretty cool but i feel that only Builders should have the option to stun with the bucket. Knights and archers already have water stuns so it would be nice if the builder also had something similar to protect themselves. Knights and archers having bucket stuns i feel would be too op.
     
    ValiantVoyager and kodysch like this.
  8. mcrifel

    mcrifel Ballista Bolt Thrower Staff Alumni Tester
    1. MIST

    Messages:
    571
    Knights and Archers both have water options that are better than the bucket so it wouldn't make much sense for them to use it.
     
    Koveltskiis and Biurza like this.
  9. you seem to forget buckets can be refilled
     
    FoxyLady likes this.
  10. kodysch

    kodysch Ballista Bolt Thrower Staff Alumni
    1. Archers [Arch] (Recruiting)

    Messages:
    452
    I thought about sponges having some negative stun action, like if you throw a sponge at teammates it negates stun.
     
  11. Koveltskiis

    Koveltskiis Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    33
    Actually I did not.
    Using a bucket in a shallow pool or underwater is not OP unless you build specifically around it due to the self stun, if you have 1 builder stunning full time you get a short burst every few seconds and not a constant stream.
    If you use it while underwater you could drown someone but may drown yourself if you don't have doors.

    Buckets would only stun enemies and the user, and thrown buckets stun only enemies.

    Thank you FBB for moving the thread ::):
     
    FuzzyBlueBaron likes this.
  12. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

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    Another possibility (in addition to held buckets stunning the user) is having buckets break when thrown hard enough to splash.
    ---

    Np. :wink:
     
  13. Koveltskiis

    Koveltskiis Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    33
    Buckets already break when thrown enough to splash (see OP):up:::)::up:
     
  14. ParaLogia

    ParaLogia tired Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Official Server Admin Tester

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    Surprisingly, no.

    A bucket thrown hard enough to break will splash, but a bucket thrown hard enough to splash will not necessarily break.
     
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  15. Koveltskiis

    Koveltskiis Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    33
    Interesting, Doesn't necessarily need to be changed though as the bucket will be right by the enemies you stunned.
     
  16. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

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    A not unreasonable point. Although if you then have the enemy killed bc of stun, you'll be able to (quite literally) rinse and repeat.

    Do buckets take damage from slashes? Bc that might help keep them from endless reuse (if that's actually a concern; idk if it is, being somewhat unable to play these days).
     
  17. Koveltskiis

    Koveltskiis Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    33
    Is this still being considered? :bucket:
     
  18. BucketEmpty

    BucketEmpty Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    35
    Keep the buckets empty. :B)::B)::B):
     
  19. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

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    Well, quewn gati has been fairly busy with rl shenanigans of late, but hopefully it's not slipped off his radar? If he doesn't get back to you you could always ping him with a link to this thread on discord (I'd try in #development).
     
  20. Eluded

    Eluded Bison Rider

    Messages:
    127
    On one hand this would be a good way to allow builders to support their team a bit more, and encourages the battle builder playstyle.

    But on the other hand, it adds more water stuns to the game. Water stuns are frustrating and unfun to play against because you can be stun-locked for long periods of time and the only counter-play is to buy a sponge.

    What if instead; the bucket didn't stun, but just pushed back enemies?
    This would allow builders to still make some cool plays like knocking an invading knight off the top of a tower, or pushing someone into a trap, without adding more water stuns to the game.
     
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