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Build 1110 Discussion - Community Response To Current Update

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Duplolas, May 2, 2014.

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  1. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    917
    This update summarized IMO:

    Archer are now in swarms on the front lines. Once one stuns you it is over. It is not as bad as when they could backstab, but still, it is pretty bad. They are support, but now a skilled archer can 1v1 a knight.

    Kegs are now way too slow to walk with, they are almost not even viable to use anymore. Especially since one small slash or arrow lob with knock it off your back and allow the enemy to light it. It is easier now just to let the enemy buy a keg and take it from him rather than buying it yourself.

    I understand that this is "experimental" and was done not just to debuff knight, but also was done to keep the map from going all the way down to bedrock. I do not think that this is an effective way of keeping map erosion from being a problem. Erosion itself is not a problem, it allows the game's environment to be constantly changing and keep players on their toes. Keeping Erosion from reaching bedrock is really the problem. A simple fix would have been to just make some maps deeper and to limit the downward destruction of blocks from explosions.

    If decreasing the price of mines was your way of trying to decrease the debuff to knights, it didn't do enough. Mines still suffer from environmental damage way too much, and are slashed in the air the second they are thrown. Mines are still not viable to use.

    If you made it so mines took way less environmental damage (as I have suggested before) and gave them a defense buff until they activated (I haven't suggested this before), it may be enough to counter-buff the amount of change the keg update has brought upon us and balance the game.

    Light from buildings when underground was a bit of a hassle for builders. It is good that that is now gone. Now Mole Builders, such as myself, may more easily dig tunnels without enemies finding out about it.

    Removing the light is a good step in the right direction, but if you are going to give builders the ability to be a bit more sneaky, don't stop at lighting. The mini-map still shows tunnels being made and can easily be seen from that. But thats not all, you still can be seen when underground typing or using emotes. If you ever want to maintain somewhat of a hidden tunnel, no one ever will be able to communicate with their team while in it.

    What I would like to see is newly formed areas, areas that the light doesn't touch and areas that are not there at the beginning of the match, have to be explored in person before it is displayed on your mini-map. Only one person would have to explore it for your entire team to see it. And as for text and emotes, I don't know what could be done to fix that. Putting a restriction on how close you have to be would be game breaking for when battleing on the surface, so that is completely out of the question.

    The knight's shield did need a huge debuff. Being able to glide and block arrows being fired horizontally was way too overpowered.

    Adding prices onto bombs was a good debuff and went well with the update the removed arrow slashing. Archers have become worth throwing a bomb at, but this is where it should have stopped.

    Everything else was purely good, however, not much of the update is left after all the negatives.

    I do realize that the CONS I have listed can be changed to PROS by saying that they technically make it so you need to use more "teamwork". But teamwork should not be forced upon us like this. If an update this big was to be gradually spread out over a few months so we could be eased into it, yeah, sure, it could be nice. But not like this.

    P.S. - I think the Kamina Head on Red should have red hair. I know it breaks the 4th wall a bit, but it still would be nice IMO.

    If you disagree with anything that I said, post here. This update is pretty controversial and player's opinions on it will be mixed. Also don't be afraid to agree with me too :wink:
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2014
    Flinan likes this.
  2. Potatobird

    Potatobird Haxor Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    777
    "Archer are now in swarms on the front lines. Once one stuns you it is over. It is not as bad as when they could backstab, but still, it is pretty bad. They are support, but now a skilled archer can 1v1 a knight."

    Uhh.. what did they even change about archers? The only thing that affects knight v archer combat (not including kegs) is the shield nerf. As long as you point your shield correctly, this literally changes nothing about knight/archer combat. Of course, aiming shield more precisely will make archer/knight combat harder for knights as they actually have to focus on their shield, but... is that a bad thing? It adds another dimension to the combat. Instead of just pointing shield in the general direction of your enemies, you'll have to try a bit harder.

    If it seems like the mass archers are op now, remember, they could have done the exact same thing last build. I guess more people just want to play archer because of the shield debuff?

    We need to try to think of things not in terms of whether knights / archers are too strong or too weak, but on what specifically is problematic or good. Buffing or nerfing just for the sake of changing the overall power level is not as productive, and doesn't really account for the fun, which is the most important thing. This should also help fix the fact that almost all balance threads turn into tug-of-wars between "archer mains" and "knight mains".
     
  3. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    917
    Last update they was not as many archer in the game. Sure, they did not do anything to them directly in this update, but now more and more players a flocking towards playing the class.

    That used to be a positive thing. More archers meant more support. Now it is drawing games out longer and is making knight v knight battling less common of a thing.

    The problem is, knight v knight combat is extremely fast paced. They are over within a few seconds.

    Archer v archer combat is slow, from a distance that is.

    But now that archer + knight v. archer + knight is now a more common thing, the game has slowed down (in the long term). Before going into a battle, knights must make sure archers cant pick them off.

    Maybe that is a good thing because it increases teamwork required to win, but I liked the fast paced combat more. It was more fun.
     
  4. BanakaI1

    BanakaI1 Shipwright

    Messages:
    215
    Update is great, but it's too bad that too many people play archer, because it kind of ruins it.
     
  5. Mazey

    Mazey Haxor Global Moderator Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    1,912
    Can't be bothered to read all your bs so I'll just reply to this
    First it was like this, but it looked bad as fuck, so me and few other testers begged lord Geti to let it stay blue.

    (also 4th wall wtf r u talking about!???)
     
  6. Flinan

    Flinan Shipwright

    Messages:
    22
    Im agree. Made keg heavy its perfect but they are too easy to unhand.
     
  7. ShnitzelKiller

    ShnitzelKiller Haxor

    Messages:
    590
    this. It shouldn't be the default class. That should be builder.
     
  8. Knighthart

    Knighthart is love Donator

    Messages:
    151
    I don't really care about the keg debuff, but can't say I like the cost changes that much, most of the time, I'd still rather get 2-3 bombs instead of one mine due to various reasons.
    Well, besides that, I played just about an hour today and it somehow rubbed me the wrong way.
    Might or might not comment further depending on if I play much in the next time.
     
  9. Ricket

    Ricket Shipwright Staff Alumni
    1. Ethereal Legion- ETHER

    Messages:
    106
    I guess the downside of making things more teamwork based is that public servers where teams are just thrown together will become less fun. In [1085] it was still possible to solo effectively, what with keg jumping and the like, but now it's a lot harder, you actually need competent teammates, especially builders to achieve anything aggressive.
    Basically I think this Update necessitates both an increase in teamwork as well as an overall increase in skill from many people.
    Plus, mines are still a bad combat option unless you're in the dark.
     
  10. GrieverJ

    GrieverJ Arsonist

    Messages:
    13
    I'm not sold on the keg changes, but I'm willing to give them more time to see how they play out once people get used to them. Main concerns being: the speed debuff makes catapulting/bomb jumping kegs almost a necessity to get anywhere, which was already too strong, and that the keg dropping change will just punish less skilled players for trying to use kegs. Now rather than exploding when attacked and maybe taking a few enemies with them, the dropped keg will be picked up by enemies and used against their team.

    Explosives not killing ground blocks seems like a good change. Certainly explosive erosion over time contributes to grind games, and maybe this will help.

    Wooden doors and platforms being a bit more durable seems fine as well. Only concern here being the danger of wooden door spamming, but I think it will work out.

    Personally I thought bombs were fine at 20, but 25 isn't that big of a deal. I really don't think decreasing the cost of mines will make more people use them, though.

    No light from buildings is good, but it's still really easy to see a tunnel in the making.

    Shield change... ugh. Maybe it was too strong before, but it's definitely too weak now. Bomb explosions in particular tend to just go straight through it; there's no such thing as a safe angle now. Since the patch, I've seen numerous instances of projectiles going into the middle of the shield and hitting anyways, and not from being too slow. This change will only encourage mass archers and bomb spam, since throwing enough projectiles even at a skilled knight will eventually result in them dying to a bomb or arrow they clearly shielded. I'll accept that the shield may have needed a nerf, but this is just too much.
     
  11. ShnitzelKiller

    ShnitzelKiller Haxor

    Messages:
    590
    Yea, and if the shield changes were supposed to improve knight combat, they failed at that, since the archers that sit back and spam will dominate, even worse than before. It seems like more people are playing archer now.
     
    Knighthart likes this.
  12. infinitito

    infinitito Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    14
    To be fair with all the people playing archer right now, it's hard to tell if the changes to the shield are more prone to projectile spam and alpha/classic-esque archer numbers because of the changes, or just because of the sheer increase in archers playing. Likely the degrees need to be adjusted, as an archer I've gotten a few kills I shouldn't have, but also a few that I'm glad I can actually get. (looking at you, knights that shield sideways, but never get their heads hit)

    In terms of long range effectiveness this will just mean having more archers on your team will actually do something instead of hinder your team, and likely the amount of new players trying to play archer, and doing so decently is how to tell if this is working too well (and being that almost everyone and their grandmothers are trying archer now, might not be the best time)

    One thing though, the keg change needs serious work, if not the weight, than the dropping, because the idea of being able to knock a keg off by hitting it is great, but the idea of a keg getting knocked off by almost anything is very weird. Something needed to be done about kegs but this surely isn't it. There have been multiple instances as an archer where I have had no business saving my team from a keg, but it has worked out somehow, after this update, and while it's nice to see archers can now do more to support, this is a bit much.

    All things considered, most of the games I've played today were still won by a knight rush supported by builders, and if even changes this drastic haven't changed that being more balanced across all classes, likely nothing will, so knights will always retain their role as the foundation of a battle.
     
  13. Potatobird

    Potatobird Haxor Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    777
    Actually, I've started buying a ton of them, lol. They're kinda fun to use, and they're not a huge amount less expensive, but they feel quite a bit cheaper for whatever reason. (maybe it's just because my nooby ass can never get much higher than 80)

    The drop in the shield arc was definitely very dramatic, and while the reasoning behind it was solid enough (220 degrees seems crazy, and there should be more effort going into shield aim), there are a couple reasons that I believe make it not work:
    • The shield graphic - it only gives a general direction that shield is facing. This was fine before this build, because that's basically what the shield did: shielded everything from that general direction. Now it's confusing - it's probably why those arrows seemingly pass through the shields. The graphic does not reflect the arc well enough.
    • Bombs - With arrows, it's obvious where they're coming from and you can aim the shield to block them (in theory anyway). With bombs, now that the shield arc is so low, I feel like it is definitely a lot harder to block those explosions, which is frustrating. Maybe increase the shield arc for bombs only - meaning two different arcs, one for bombs and one for arrows. I think we shouldn't really have to aim when trying to bombjump - the old bomb/shield relationship makes more sense imo.
     
  14. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    917
    What I would suggest is adding arrow slashing back. If we are going to keep everything in this update, arrow slashing would be a great plus to have back.
     
    zerd likes this.
  15. BanakaI1

    BanakaI1 Shipwright

    Messages:
    215
    I like the new kegs, because now instead of being able to keg whenever the hell you feel like it, you have to keg when your team is actually against the enemy tower.
     
  16. Yantex

    Yantex :^)) Donator
    1. Angels of Death - [AoD]

    Messages:
    148
    Everything in this update is awesome especially you can now teleport with the kegs. One sad thing though; No bomb jumping with kegs, fml.
     
    meaow likes this.
  17. BanakaI1

    BanakaI1 Shipwright

    Messages:
    215
    catapult
     
  18. Yantex

    Yantex :^)) Donator
    1. Angels of Death - [AoD]

    Messages:
    148
    what?
     
    meaow likes this.
  19. BanakaI1

    BanakaI1 Shipwright

    Messages:
    215
    Catapult yourself with keg
     
  20. Yantex

    Yantex :^)) Donator
    1. Angels of Death - [AoD]

    Messages:
    148
    You can do that?!!!
     
    meaow likes this.
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