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BUILD 1215 - Rebalance and Fix Central

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Geti, Aug 15, 2014.

  1. TheDirtySwine

    TheDirtySwine Bison Rider Staff Alumni Donator

    I don't think I ever left my feedback after I tried out the new build. I love everything about the build except for a few small things. I like the jab counter attack however I got into a fight and when my opponent knew he lost he began to jab spam and ended up winning. I believe the best way to make sure jabbing is a positive part in the game is to slow them down a little bit. I also dislike how difficult it is to fight a large group of archers. There are a lot more archers in this build and with the recent nerfs to knight mobility it is increasingly difficult to take out a large group of archers. I think that the fact that they are working together is great because I know a group of knights would be scary and seem OP too, but I feel that it shouldn't be a negative part of the game. The last thing I would like to say is that builders are still a well balanced class however I think that a little more protection or damage on the battlefield would greatly help them
  2. AJFaas

    AJFaas Base Burner
    1. supr sekrit cln [skrt]

    The new updates are, simply put, breaking the old mechanics because it plays very different now as when it came out on steam. The whole point of a full release is to send a simple message to the buyer: WE ARE DONE GET COMFORTABLE WITH THE MECHANICS BECAUSE THIS IS IT! Also Im not sure about this but I dont think kag has official testers(anymore?). I can assume that its just people who play the game and post their complaints on the forum.
    My point on that post is that people arent getting what they originally came for. And the only thing people say to you on the forum when you dont like it, EVEN THE MODERATORS?! I mean sheas put a leash on them, theyre chasing away your audience, is; Whatever they got your money you can fuck off now. And I really hope geti and the other developers dont actually share that thought. Because I swear then they will fail in the game development bussiness.
  3. 8x

    8x Elimination Et Choix Traduisant la Realité Forum Moderator Tester Official Server Admin
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    The most common issue I see with the last build, ingame and on the forums, is that players don't liking it are saying the game is ruined. We the players care mainly about our own fun —I have not as much fun = the game is ruined—, and the devs, dev-team and testers, care about the game or what is good for it.
    Apparently there should be a reaction update soon, fixing some new bugs and adressing the current state of the game more. Looking forward to seeing it.

    On the other hand, the game has received a bunch of builds since it was released on Steam, and just a few players, as me ::):, complain this hard.

    Edit: I wonder why these gamebraking mechanics idea hasn't been mentioned before, because tehre have been a lot of them on a bunch of builds AJFaas.
  4. 101i

    101i Haxor Forum Moderator Tester

    Games change how they play almost every time they update, if you can't handle that go play your xbox and your playstation instead of this constantly updating indie game.
    Yes THD has official testers, they're constantly working to please the greater crowd of this community (those who give there opinion here), not those who just rock up to complain to change.
    It's a forum, the point it so share you opinion, converse over the game changes, and most importantly discuss on how to make the game better.
    With nearly 1000 hours spent into classic/beta, I think I spent my money well.
    Noburu and Malitha like this.
  5. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Now, now. Let's all take a step back and breath some. There's an element of defensive fanboyism that's creeping into a few people's tones ("if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen", that kind of thing) and it's causing me much disappoint, son. :huh?:

    @AJFaas - reading over your last few comments I think you raise a decent point re: people's expectations when buying the game (a point I'll try to address below), but I can ask you to also take a step back and consider that many of the people here are deeply in love with both this game & the development team behind it-- and hence, like most people who have found something they really enjoy, tend to get snippish when they feel others are doing their game/devs a disservice. It's not you, it's just people (acting like normal people) around something they treasure.

    I get your point, I really do: You pay for "X", and then you turn around and it's morphed into "X". Almost the same, but also undeniably not what you'd originally shelled out money for. Pretty frustrating.

    Now, I really hate it when people fall back to saying things like "You should have read the ToS, etc." because even if it's a legally sound rebuff, it still stinks of BS. So instead I'm going to try and explain, to the best of my ability, the pragmatics of the situation as I understand it.

    Basically, there are two questions that come to mind when I consider your point:
    1. What do other games/devs in the industry do?
    2. What did THD do, and could they have done it better?
    In answer to the first, I'd have to look around and say: "Well, it certainly depends; but I see an awful lot of games where the devs have released (due to financial concerns, or PR reasons, or just that the final deadline/shipping date has come) a game that is ostensibly "finished" but still contains some bugs/issues-- some of them minor, some of them not." And then I'd go and do some follow up on what the devs did post-release, and I'd have to say: "Well, broadly speaking, there are two outcomes: a) said released-but-not-actually-finished-game is never patched; or b) said game is patched, (generally) making it an overall better product."

    So, generally speaking, I'd suggest that it's fair to say that releasing "fully finished, 100% all done" is a rarity in the games industry as a whole; moreover, getting a game that the devs continue to patch/tweak until it suits the broader player base is also a rarity. Generally it seems that games are either punted out the door and left to fend for themselves, or else they have a go at patching it but wind up moving on to other projects without nutting out most of the bugs.

    Having now established a baseline to which we can compare the actions of THD, let's look at the second question:

    What did THD do, and could they have done it better?

    Well, I think it's fair to point out that the release of KAG on Steam wasn't because the devs thought it was "all done, hurhur". Iirc, they were well aware that they would still be working on it for a while but they were also aware that, financially speaking, they were scraping the bottom of the barrel. They released KAG not because they felt it had achieved its final form, the game they'd always wanted it to be, but because things like paying the rent and eating regularly were becoming problematic (which, in turn, was becoming problematic to their ability to continue working on the game).

    So they released.

    At this point it would not have been entirely out of line with industry practice to say "lel, we're done here. Fix it ur self". But instead they've stayed and continued to patch things towards a better overall game. They've weathered some pretty harsh criticism from (at some time or other) pretty much every single one of the people you see posting in this thread. But they've kept going. They've kept patching and, perhaps more importantly, they've continued to engage with the community on what we want in our game.

    Now, if we compare all this to the baseline we established about the gaming industry as a whole, I think it becomes pretty clear why some people here have been getting antsy with you:
    • First: the dedication the devs at THD have shown both this game and this community is vanishingly rare. This creates a lot of loyalty, and in many cases it makes it quite a fierce loyalty.
    • Second: the basis of your complaint is that the devs have been disrespectful to their customer's "expectations". This paints the devs as (at best) unorthodox if not (at worst) dishonest and/or incompetent in releasing a "not 100% finished" game. An overview of the gaming industry as a whole, however, shows that any realistic expectations by customers of the games industry aught to include both: a) the expectation that many games will be <100% finished on release, and b) the understanding that any dev teams that continue to tweak/improve a game that's sold over 100,000 copies are worth their weight in fucking DIAMONDS bc most others would have simply moved onto something else by then.
    So, um, yes.

    You raise a fair point in wondering why your expectations have been at cross-purposes with the latest patches, but your point also would seem to demonstrate a lack of understanding of what is fair or realistic to expect from a couple of indie developers. This, IMHO, is the reason for the hostility you've been receiving from some quarters. Not that it excuses said hostility (I'm watching you, you know who you are) but it does, I feel, help to explain it some.


    (fwiw, apologies for the wall-o-text. Finished writing a 5000 wd essay for uni today and I just can't seem to stop... ;>_>)
    Klokinator, Aurora-, 101i and 10 others like this.
  6. AJFaas

    AJFaas Base Burner
    1. supr sekrit cln [skrt]

    @FuzzyBlueBaron is
    First of all I wanna say that im suprised to get such a fair and thought out response, im certainly not used to that. But as you say; thats because people are protecting their treasure, with their limited tools may it be...

    I agree that a bug free released game is certainly a rarity nowadays even 20 years ago they had patches. But I dont agree that its a rarity that the developers continue to work on it afterwards. Which is a bad move as far as i can tell because it will piss your fans off and will stagnate sales on new projects later on. Ofcourse you hear those stories about warz or dayz im not sure which one, about developers pretty much screwing their fanbase over hard. But I guess theyre pretty much fucked in the future if they ever wanna release a game again because their reputation is dead.
    I can honestly say that in my experience most games that are made by decent companies(I include THD as decent company) are pretty well maintained even after release.

    I agree that according to the law they couldve packed and left, put a big fuck you suckers on their front page, and go on their merry ways without worries. But as I said above; abondoning fans with unfinished products is bad for the trust bond with your fans. This is where we just differ I guess. As far as I can tell, you say that developers can do what they want, once they release the game, without Consequence. But I think that this would be bad for their future.
    Sure if you plan to make one game, get rich and never show your face again, then this is a solid tactic. But seeing that geti and the gang is fresh fish in the pond I guess they wanna continue on after kag and make many more games. Unless ofcourse they are just the bug fixers MM pays to keep the game running. I can honestly say that I have no idea what the relation between geti and MM is and if they split the percentage or if MM pays them monthly wage. Im assuming that MM is the big boss.
    But back on track.
    The reason im saying that they pretent this is a full game, when it (even now) isnt. Even when im saying that, for example, a game like fallout 3 was a full game at the release is, very simple. Its because they are still changing core mechanics in kag. I think its really not acceptable to call your game full when youre still changing core gameplay aspects. And im not saying that my view on this is the general opinion, but its what I strongly believe. When i see full game, i expect glitches and bugs, not things like; now were gonna decrease your jump, now were gonna make it harder for you, now were gonna make it easier for you. Etc. Kag doenst allow you to settle. Which a game should, when its done.

    Even through all what im saying how i feel about what theyre doing. I still forgive the developers for this deception of a full game. Not because they keep releasing updates. But because I feel like they made a bad decision, based on because they are new to the game, or because they were in serious money trouble, both reasons I have peace with. I dont think they intended to screw the fans over. Which I think explains why they keep updating after all this time.

    Maybe youre right that i expect too much of indie developers. Or maybe you dont expect enough. But what I said in previous posts wasnt really to protect myself, but the people who complain that this is not the game they bought originally, I wanted to make it clear to the people, who show not a pinch of respect, for them and tell them to go away. Next time one of the people who are now telling people to fuck off and play another game, will have an aspect of the game they dont like and will get the same threatment. It will solve nothing. I think every person paying money for this game has equal rights.

    Your response certainly opened more possibilites to look at this whole situation at different angles. For me and (I think) for the people who feel wronged.

    Sorry for the long and maybe chaotic response :p organizing and solid sentences arent my strong suit.
    bunnie likes this.
  7. Thiamor

    Thiamor Horde Gibber
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Let me explain this in a way you might understand. There were more people who wanted these changes, than those pissed that they had done so. IE, the majority rules over a few pissed off players, that are pissed that what they had paid for is gone. A simple solution is to have a server host the old version prior to this update, and then play on that.

    Plus you bitching about not getting what you paid for should go into a different topic entirely, because that's different than discussing the actual functionality behind the changes.
    Noburu likes this.
  8. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    While I agree with your underlying point, Thiamor, note that it took only half a post post to revert back to name calling.

    Re: expectations vs reality vs our intention - fwiw these changes were not made haphazardly, they were made following about month of testing and listening to feedback here and ingame. The number of people with negative feelings about build build or changes in it has, in our eyes and as far as we've heard externally, been dwarfed by the number of people with positive feelings.

    While it's not "nice" to have to make changes that make anyone sad, if there's anything that we've found over the >1000 days KAG's been in development is that almost any change will make at least 1 person sad.

    As a quick example from early on, we removed the bomb "hover countdown timers" because the bombs already have heaps of visual cues about how close they are to exploding, and we felt it reduced clutter while increasing the amount of skill players could display with bombs; this change was well received over all, but there were a handful of knights that relied on the bomb timer as a crutch to time their bombjumps.
    Coming back to the present day, we removed infinite wall climbing with shields to "ground" play a little more, give structures more meaning and permanence, and increase the consistency of the physics with a new player's expectations; and while this change has been well received overall and achieved its goals, there was also some resistance from knights that felt it was more or less their right to be able to get anywhere not entombed in stone.

    We can't simply not make any changes that could make anyone sad, or we'd never be able to add or change or balance features again.

    Re: these changes should have been pushed out slowly - this is something I haven't addressed publicly before, and should. While it would often be preferable to do things slowly and cautiously, and we try to take that approach when we can, often changes depend on other changes to work properly. Similarly, in cases where changes can be perceived as "nerfs", making the changes over a handful of builds simply results in players who over-utilise whatever item or class is being balanced getting upset multiple times - in cases like this I think it's better to simply "rip off the band-aid" (assuming that analogy translates).

    This time around, another contributing factor to build delays was the build server going offline on two instances, meaning we couldn't test or release builds even if we wanted to.

    Re: Jabs - I'll be trying to get a new build out this friday with a handful of fixes and a couple of (not many) balance tweaks, this includes a very slight slowing of jabs. I might not be able to make it though, as I have 3 assignments due for uni soon, and some work to do on Trench Run as well, so it may end up being next week.
    AJFaas, NinjaCell, Anonymuse and 9 others like this.
  9. Thiamor

    Thiamor Horde Gibber
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Saying someone is bitching isn't name calling.
  10. NinjaCell

    NinjaCell Haxor

    It's insulting and does not help your argument in any way.
    FuzzyBlueBaron and Asu like this.
  11. Verzuvius

    Verzuvius Shark Slayer

  12. Yagger

    Yagger Kouji's bitch 5eva Staff Alumni Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    how the fuck do builder nerfs tie into this at all is a better question. builders already have little close defense, and they can't move as fast archers or knights. any less health and frontline rushing or building turns into shit.
  13. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    I'd prefer making drills a better builder weapon to nerfing the weakest class in KAG.

    And people who say dumb stuff like "Builders R 4 def, they don't need 3 HP" are obviously people who haven't tried rushing to the frontlines to help their fellow knights. You'd be shell shocked at how quick 3 HP goes down. If I had 2 HP and died to a single knight slash I'd be shitting myself in rage. Archers can get away with it because they can escape anything w/grapple, while builders only have one defense, and that's entombing. Technically you can jump and hop around too, but any knight can copy your movements and use stabby-stab to finish you off.
  14. AJFaas

    AJFaas Base Burner
    1. supr sekrit cln [skrt]

    I dont have a big problem with builders right now. I just dont like that most matches nowadays end up with many enemy tunnels and doors in your base. Most games depend on who has the most aggresive builder. I think this needs tweaking.
    8x, Klokinator and Anonymuse like this.
  15. Anonymuse

    Anonymuse Arsonist

    Too many games are won by really annoying tunnelers. This isn't fun for anyone. At all. It's just an arduous battle where knights sick back and randomly charge slashes hoping they'll kill the other knights while the builders spam dozens of doors. It's the most unsatisfying ending to any match, but I have no idea how this could be changed. If I were a map maker, I'd put a wall of bedrock underground in front of their base, but I don't know how players would like that. Any suggestions?
  16. TheDirtySwine

    TheDirtySwine Bison Rider Staff Alumni Donator

    I don't understand what else a builder is supposed to do. They will surround themselves with whatever block necessary in order to survive. Putting bedrock won't prevent them from tunneling higher in your base. Would you prefer to have kegs and explosives the only way into your base? I think a builder that is good enough to get into your base alive should not be punished.
  17. Potatobird

    Potatobird Haxor Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    worms that dig around and eat people ala terraria

    but on a more serious note, those people digging around in the tunnels are people that aren't defending their base. While they're busy burrowing around their overground push will be weaker. The real problem is once the tunnelers reach your base, most builders get all wimpy and go minecraft even closer to the tent. Once the tunnelers get too close, you gotta flush them out. It isn't terribly difficult, but most people just ignore them and lose.

    I lost a game last night by putting a tunnel in the caves under their base, and while all of our knights were just dicking around in the tunnels making cave art or whatever both of our flags got capped.
    FuzzyBlueBaron likes this.
  18. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Well, here's how it worked in the old kag, before beta. I'm not saying it was better, because I vastly prefer current KAG's movement and mechanics, but here's how old kag worked.

    First, knights could get over things and rekk bases, but their actual block destructive capabilities were very low.
    Second, archers were used to take out incoming knights and especially builders. They didn't have many, if any block destructive abilities that I can think of. They didn't even have water arrows, fire arrows, or bomb arrows, or even a legolas shot or a grapple. They were still pretty insane though IIRC.
    Third, builders were the main class used to getting into a base. A builder at the front was essential to getting to that flag and collapsing the enemy's base. Builders also had the ability to repair damaged blocks by placing new blocks on them, and it would cost less than a full block normally cost.

    Builders were creation and demolition, knights were anti-player, archers were anti-knight. Knights had bombs, but no kegs, or drills, or etc. I don't even think tunnels were in alpha.

    In the current version of kag, knights have a ridiculous arsenal of devastating weaponry available, including bombs, kegs, and mines. They used to have drills too, but even taking that out they still have triple the destructive power they did in classic. Archers have a ridiculous amount of power as well, and the builder is just as good with taking out enemy encampments as he used to be. Really, if you think the only way into an enemy base is tunneling, you're wrong.

    I do think we could stand to have wallclimb back, since that was never OP in my opinion. The current wallclimb is underwhelming for all classes, and slash-climbing feels useless now.
    PinXviiN likes this.
  19. AJFaas

    AJFaas Base Burner
    1. supr sekrit cln [skrt]

    What i think would be the best job layout for classes would be that
    1) knights attack other attackers and destroy enemy structures.
    2) builders defend their base and cover and protect more ground.
    3) Archers protect the walls and cover knights.
    In my opinion though, if it would happen like im saying, kag will be very bland and will look scripted. But I feel that this is what kag is trying to achieve. restrictions to classes.
  20. Thiamor

    Thiamor Horde Gibber
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    It's the same as saying complaining. I am not insulting him, if I use bitching for when anyone complains. It's just how I say it, and will say it.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 29, 2014, Original Post Date: Aug 29, 2014 ---
    Also we probably could have wallclimb back. What could counter balance it, is an ability to slick up your walls to keep anyone from climbing it. Sends you down right away. Then all you do is constantly have a shop that creates the substance you pour down your wall.