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Build 1233 - Builders and Archers

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Geti, Sep 2, 2014.

  1. FTWLAMA

    FTWLAMA Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    30
    Lol haha, no but I explained why I dislike the build and in previous used more points. Lamanamanumi is a wrestler for stranglemania and it is just catchy. People notice catchy or interesting names(not that I am attention hogging, but it gets funny reactions from people). My steam is what I play with and contrary to popular belief I am not a dumb steam KAGer. I haven't seen you recently in game though I stick to tdm and tth most of the time. If there is something I love about this build is the new tdm mechanics work, man I hate suiciders.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 5, 2014, Original Post Date: Sep 5, 2014 ---
    Also my old clan tag used to be FTW before I was recruited by BOMB:bomb:.
     
  2. Noburu

    Noburu Dirty, DRUNK, Hillbilly Forum Moderator Donator Tester

    Messages:
    1,809
    As the all time number one archer in KAG i will take Contrary's opinion over all you whiners.
     
    SirDangalang and TheDirtySwine like this.
  3. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

    Messages:
    2,196
    Well I have to admit my ego is being fed quite nicely right now.

    But at the same time I really think everyone should take the time to read all comments based on their individual merit. I mean I am always and absolutely correct in everything I post, but one of these days I might just say something dumb to see if you're listening.

    I can agree that people need to chill the fuck out. This game is built by the players at least as much as it is by the devs. I can already see new techniques and counter techniques being brought up in this very thread; it'd be foolish not to wait and see what else develops. New strategies developed by players can flip the game over just as hard as MM sneaking in whatever game-breaking oddity he dreams up for the week. Even subtle shifts in the way people play can have a huge impact on game balance.

    The examples are limitless. Remember when Acavado spikes were first discovered? Holy shit you could slaughter entire severs with a single one of those. Even experienced players would run into them multiple times simply due to have novel it was. But a month later you'd be lucky if you could snag more than one or two noobs.

    Even bigger than that was when dragonxp first pioneered door ladders. By this time the game had been out a few months and we all made our buildings like normal real life castles and stuff with ground level doors and windows where you'd expect to see windows. Door ladders blew the game wide open and to this day you'd be hard pressed to find a decent classic building that doesn't feature extensive use of this discovery.

    There are many archer related examples too, such as when yours truly popularized the shoot->stomp combo that allowed archers to beat even experienced knights 1v1. Personally I think it would have been fine once players got better and learned better bomb use, but that's just another example of how the behaviour of players can dramatically shift gameplay.

    But now I'm just an old man grumbling about the past.

    I guess you kids can play on my lawn if you really want to...
     
  4. TheDirtySwine

    TheDirtySwine Bison Rider Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    818
    All hail great contrary!
     
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  5. Thiamor

    Thiamor Horde Gibber
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    413
    What I hate the most is when you see newbies bitching about how something is so OP and yet bitch when they take it away from them, or change it to be a little less OP. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, and so the best choice is to go based on the general consensus which is what they have been doing.
     
  6. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    Yeah well, to you, Thiamor, "Newbie" is somewhere between 0 and 600 hours of playtime. I have 250 hours of playtime on steam and however many hundred from before beta, and all you do on the steam forum is scream at people when they express an opinion you don't like and then you whip out the newbie card and say "You only have XXX hours, tell me more when you have as much playtime as me". There was even a post somewhere that I can't find where you told a guy he "only" had 400 hours of playtime so his opinion didn't matter.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Auburn has 2 hours less playtime than you, so are his opinions invalidated too, or is he in 'da kool klub'?
     
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  7. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    @Contrary: I've got a suspicion half the people arguing here don't know what acovado spikes are :^) but I agree completely.

    tower post inbound, trying to address everything that's been missed.

    Re: "game ruined" and every similar post for the past 3 years
    While I'm glad you have strong feelings about the game, every time I read this i become more and more numb to it. I read on the steam forums someone saying that removing the arrow stuck in sprites from the game ruined it and that they'd no longer be playing. We've had someone say this about almost every change (overall positively recieved or not) since KAG's inception. Yes, your opinion matters. No, these issues are not anywhere near as drastic as "ruined".

    Re: "ARCHERS WILL GET A BIG NERF NOOO"
    This is a weird, paranoid train of thought. The goal is balancing and helping players across the board, not ruining your fun; where we can we prefer to make changes rather than outright nerfs cause we're well aware that nerfs aren't enjoyable for those involved; hence making the change towards shotgun overcharge instead of just removing the triple shot like some people would have us do.

    Re: all the shotgun griping on both sides
    Build tonight contains an anti-spam measure that makes the outer arrows die after a reasonable distance (as suggested by ninjacell, though not applied to all the arrows) which will negate "sky shotguns" completely while allowing the archer to support with direct line of sight, and still usable in CQC. Yes, this means it'll still have a lot of utility in defense, but also has the same utility for making fast, evenly spread arrow ladders.

    If there are still issues, we can drop back to a poll for where to go from there, or simply revert to the streaming triple shot. Remember that changes aren't FINAL IRREVOKABLE MONSTERS THAT RUIN COMPETITIVE KOG FOREVER!, they're just lines of code or some pixel art; they can be undone if they prove to be bad.

    Re: Legolas was more accurate/better over long distance
    More accurate compared to the current shotgun, yes - but it was and remains to be less accurate and a lower rate of fire than just shooting the arrows singly. The legolas shot had RNG inaccuracy (the single shots don't) and the legolas required 5 seconds of charge + 1 second of firing/cooldown for 3 arrows, compared with 1 second per full charged single arrow. The maths of what you're complaining about doesn't make sense; over distance you shouldn't be using legolas shots anyway, chained single shots are superior in every way.

    Re: Archers overall
    It's been interesting seeing all the different opinions on the current state of archer; overall I have been seeing more people playing archer though, which I take as an indication that it's more fun to play for the average user since last build. imo that's a good thing, and those insisting that the class balance should always fall in favour of knights are simply used to the idea that knight should outrank archer in utility and enjoyment.

    Re: Siege needs some attention
    I've dropped the "convert on sit" mechanic in the next build to see how it goes. I'm working on being able to stick wheels back on for a bit of wood as well, and would like to get the canopy in (finally) but I've been swamped in uni work and need to spend some time on TR as well.

    Re: repairing blocks @Contrary
    I know we made a conscious decision against this early on; so far I've wanted to give some stuff back to battle builders though, as they get a pretty hard lot currently; entombing is only so much of an issue as you can use bombs to kill them through walls, and if they hold down the button on the tiles you're attacking they quickly run out of resources. I've also had multiple cases recently where taking out a block to repair it wasn't an option due to the current structure design or there being a pile of knights on the other side, which I feel is contributing to buildings melting like fairy floss in a puddle. Basically, things change I guess.

    @Klokinator
    The flag build area was reduced by one tile this build to alleviate that; you're arguing based on outdated reasons here. I've not had trouble moving around in the recent build except in cases where the terrain has been a mess due to erosion; a case that I don't think we'll really be able to fix.
     
  8. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    I saw that topic. It gave me cancer.

    I still don't like tunnels costing gold. Running out of stone was bad enough, but at least that only happened at the two hour mark of an average match, IIRC. You can run out of gold REALLY fast now, though I do like the thought of giving gold more utility.

    Suggestion: Saws cost 150 wood 50 stone and 20 gold. Tunnels cost 200 wood and 100 stone and 20 gold. Drills cost 100 stone and 10 gold.

    Drills deal damage to players more effectively but are still broken by a slashing knight fairly easily. They become not just resource gathering items and tower destruction tools for builders, but in a pinch can be used to fight off a knight if used expertly.
    Tunnels cost gold still, but less gold so you don't run out so quickly. Since you have to spend gold on other easily spammed items, like drills and saws, the gold cost evens out but allows a team to forgo one thing (Like drills) allowing them to gain another thing (Like tunnels) in greater numbers.
    Finally, saws lose some of that insane 100 stone cost and drop to 50 stone, but have a minor gold cost as well. I'm not even sure how I like this, since getting gold at the start of a match for a quick tree-farm saw might be a pain in the ass on specific maps. Maybe all maps can have 50 gold near the spawn and other gold can be elsewhere?
     
  9. The-Cub

    The-Cub I'm actually Blue_Tiger

    Messages:
    48
    Hypocrites - oh how I love them.
     
  10. SirDangalang

    SirDangalang Lvl. 128 MissingNo. Donator

    Messages:
    235
    You Sir are a scholar and a saint lol :smug:

    The notion of "People please, learning the new metagame is fun. No please seriously just try it, we don't need to change things on a daily basis" can not be more advocated.
    I honestly believe the best part of this is game is when players develop techniques and then counter techniques which are not immediately obvious within a few days of play following big build such as these recent ones. Wishing for changes even before a week has passed is denying yourself to become a better KAG player and actually stunting the growth of the community figuring out amazing in-game strategies as they are potentially plastered over repeatedly by our beloved devs toiling away to make everyone happy.

    In other news as archer is my favoured class I'm personally liking the new legolas. Going to miss delaying single shots whist holding the charge for the old leg, but the new spread is fun in archer vs archer battles and makes me feel like i'm in a space shooter and I just picked up a triple shot power up. :X3:
     
    Noburu likes this.
  11. -Crimson-

    -Crimson- Haxor

    Messages:
    108
    Eh, I like how the triple shot patch reduced spam, which is good,
    but I don't like how you can rip any knight that comes 2 blocks in front of you + having a range advantage when knights don't, unless they want to spend 25c for a bomb.

    Isn't the knight suppose to be the "upper" class so to speak when it comes to close quarter combat?
    I feel like that got took away, and now archers are even more dangerous in packs close range. (Unless, of course, their was a class cap) 25252525
    Archers shouldn't be nerfed either just because more people are now putting them to use more often.

    But at the same time, I feel like its necessary (shotgun archer that is).. hopefully the developers will figure something out, that I think most of us can come to terms with, if we haven't already.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2014
  12. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,274
    yes "ignore this guys views he's a player who hasnt been here for years so his opinions are invalid"toxic post from a toxic community
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 5, 2014, Original Post Date: Sep 5, 2014 ---
    um so does most games that take the same ammount of time to make or much longer irregardless can you stop insulting everyone who isnt an oldfag?
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 5, 2014 ---
    i disagree with this drills already cost goldcoins and adding anymore like 1o gold ore would be a major nerf to builders like making kegs cost 10 gold ore;most maps do not have much gold so i really dont like any of your ideas nothing against you.
     
    The-Cub likes this.
  13. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    I do agree with the sentiment about changing meta/game, variety's neat.
    As far as drills go, fuck them, fuck them almost as hard as proxy tunnels.
     
  14. Nighthawk

    Nighthawk gaurenteed shitter

    Messages:
    793
    I hope that once all the Archer changes are good at settled in people calm down and stop playing Archer so much. Having seven Archers, two Builders and one Knight is kind of annoying.
     
  15. TheDirtySwine

    TheDirtySwine Bison Rider Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    818
    Alright, I realize we're getting nowhere if we continue to argue. I just want to be clear that the KAG community values your opinion; however, I don't think it is necessary to threaten the Devs (oh this game sucks now I'm leaving), comment the same opinion repeatedly, or to make any other forms of toxic posts. Geti works very hard to please the community, and I'm sure he has found it very disheartening when reading some of your comments. Now that I reflect, I see how frustrated you all made me and I'd like to apologize. I get frustrated very easily by people that argue without as much experience because they might not know that this game gets crazy changes quite frequently and most of them are for the better even if they seem scary or unbalanced at first.

    TLDR: I'd like to apologize, but I hope we make more constructive posts rather than whining and threatening to leave the game.
     
    SirDangalang likes this.
  16. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    917
    Lurker here.

    Just posting because I found something interesting in what @Geti said.

    I have to disagree with one part of this quote, which I put in bold.

    First, I couldn't care less if you like this update or not. I don't like it. You like it. Who cares. This is my opinion so suck it up buttercup.

    There is a difference between usefulness and entertainment.

    When I say knight is no longer fun to play, I mean you are making him less useful to play in comparison to the alternative. Knight is fun because he pushes. Knight is fun because you get a good feeling when you achieve a offensive goal you set for yourself. Knight is fun because you feel like a leader.

    Archer should be fun because of the mobility you get. Swinging around, evading certain death. Killing a class who is stronger than you. Helping your teammates. But in recent updates you try to make archer fun to play by making it a class that copies the knight's reasons why you have fun playing it.

    Balance is not taking a Medic from TF2 and making him do more damage, giving him more health, and changing the class to be more like another. Medic is played because it is support. You have fun healing and supporting your team. Not everyone plays medic because of this, which is a good thing. If everyone were medics, you would lose every time.

    Balance is synergy. Balance is when people can play two entirely different classes together and do well in a game and because of it, have fun.

    More people are playing archers because not only does it retain the previous reasons why it was fun to play it, but also because you have given it some of the same reasons why it is fun to play knight. You have made it easier to achieve the goals previously set for archer. One example of this is killing knights is now easier.

    However, you will see a slow decline in play of archer for this reason. As knight becomes more balanced, the challenge in killing a knight as an archer gets lower and thus gives you less satisfaction in a kill.

    So when I say knight is no longer fun to play, it is because you are making him less useful. You are making it harder to play a class that should be harder to play against, not to play as.

    That is why CQC for archer was removed. It was an extreme case where you actually made archer stronger in close range combat than a knight was. And I am not saying this is as bad as that, in fact, it is no where near as bad as that. Comparing what has been done now to that, is insane. However, retrospectively, it should not be done. Saying, oh, this update is no where near as bad as that shouldn't be done. All that does is create a false sense of acceptance for what you have now.

    My opinion, and this will likely be the last time I post on the subject (horray!), is not based upon the precedents of extremes of knight being overpowered or archer being overpowered. It is based upon what I personally used to enjoy, not what I used to hate.

    And thats my opinion. Bash it all you want. At least I can have one without being influenced by any others around me, I have no one around me to be influenced by. I am just happy I can say, on my own, that I fucking hate this update.

    The end. Nit pick it all you want. It'll just make me laugh at how ignorant you can be that no matter what, everyone has to like what you like.

    So if insulting me or my opinions makes you feel less insecure, go ahead.

    Edit:

    Just read back through the thread and I think it is hilarious that there is a legitimate caste system forming. Those who don't agree with the consensus are cast out and labeled as unwanted.

    Indie Games exist because small groups of people or even individuals who have an idea that isn't accepted by everyone. Ideas that are not picked up by big name developers, but through their own inspiration and strive, still create the game they had only until recently been imagined.

    Indie game developers have strive. They have a burning passion and a dedication to the community that helps and have helped them build the game into what it is today. There are people who bash their game. Who just believe it is a pile of shit and then never play it again. And thats it. And then there are people who are willing to take the time to write their own opinion that is clearly thought out. Whether what they say is good or bad, all that matters is that they cared enough to respond.

    If you are going around bashing people who are just being asshats who write one line in a post about how bad the game is, go right ahead. It'll just start an argument that will never end. But if you just ignore it, everything will be fine. Why try to protect game devs who already have the thickest skin in the business. They can tell if people care about their game or not and decide on their own who to listen to and who not to.

    TL;DR:

    Don't spend all your energy trying to protect a tank from slingshots firing pebbles. Conserve your energy for fighting other tanks, a.k.a. people who actually post strong opinions that are opposite of yours. But if you are going to fight, do it respectfully.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2014
    -Crimson-, The-Cub and Fuzzle like this.
  17. NinjaCell

    NinjaCell Haxor

    Messages:
    358
    Made...difference...life...validated...
     
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  18. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    Duplolas could have made good points if the condescension flying off his post like tachyon rays didn't make my eyes explode due to extreme apathy.

    So since reading his post is the most painful thing ever, let's move on.

    Yep, I agree. I don't think they should cost gold, nor should tunnels, nor should saws. That being said Geti seems to want gold toplay a bigger part and he seems to love making things cost not a bit more than a previous build, but a LOT more than a previous build.

    Case in point, saws used to cost 150 wood in CTF. Geti saw people spamming saws and said "Better make them cost more to curb that" so he added 100 stone to the current cost, which is way too much and I will continue to question this decision until he lowers the cost to 50 stone. In the current meta there's also that glitch that makes builders gather at half the speed they used to for stone, so it takes forever to gain the needed stone for a saw/tunnel.

    I'd like to have kept the game the way it was two builds ago and just add bug fixes. I felt like archers had a lot of utility without being the arrow-spamming builder-sappers they are now, knights could get over defenses but there were counters to everything, and all classes had a range of skills for tackling situations. Things like OP boulders weren't even bad because they put archers and builders on a somewhat level playing field with knights, but now they're too strong because knights are so much weaker mobility-wise than they used to be.

    And for anyone saying "They didn't lose much mobility" I will tell you now that most games I win are because of being able to get to places that allow me to pull off key moves that win matches or allow my teammates to win matches. Losing even a slight amount of movement can make a huge difference in the long game, and it gave builders (My favorite class by the way!) too much stopping power, resulting in the constant stalemates we now experience every match. Removing infinite-wall climbing was all the nerfs the knight class needed, mobility-wise.
    Incidentally, I don't mind other knight changes like stab-interruption, because from what I've experienced, that was a good, needed change.
     
  19. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    917
    Lol.

    Agrees with certain parts of my post. Calls it "Most painful thing ever".

    Says the 14 y/o who got caught arguing about something that wasn't even in the game anymore.

    Seriously. I can't stop myself from coming back if you keep making it so hilarious to read what you post.

    But man. Calling me condescending after the entire post was written as if I was a beaten down dog that was the lowest of the low. Even going onto say how I myself am part of the caste of players who are thought of as lowly really makes a lot of sense.

    Maybe you should google what big words mean before you use them :^)
     
    Fuzzle likes this.
  20. Yagger

    Yagger Kouji's bitch 5eva Staff Alumni Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    646
    ladies ladies, let's agree ur both bad.

    [insert laughing black man.gif]