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Build 1233 - Builders and Archers

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Geti, Sep 2, 2014.

  1. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    Re: Missing mentions/features/changes.

    I made the post reasonably late at night and seem to have a missed a couple of things. Sorry to Norill in particular!

    Re: What is "A lot of stuff"???

    Special arrows/bombs, siege weapons - that is all. Stuff in water still decays. Builder materials still decay. This was specifically to reduce the number of times a special arrow or bomb on the field vanishes just as you're about to grab it.

    Re: Archer Skill Ceiling IS NO MORE!
    People said the same thing about legolas shooting fwiw. So far I haven't seen anything ridiculous as a result other than less special arrow spam and fewer archers shooting from doors for extended periods. Good luck winning more than a 1v1 without still using precision single shots and half shots; good luck making good use of special arrows without aiming as well.

    Monsteri is also right in that we've leaned far too far the other way in the past and ended up with a learning "wall" instead of a learning curve, and focus on competitive play while there's a dearth of competitive players. I don't feel that it's nearly as drastic a change as some are making out.

    Re: Archers OP in CQC
    We'll see how the meta adjusts before reacting here.

    Re: Tunnels cost too much gold!
    Remember that's only 2.5 gold blocks off the map; you can make a pair of tunnels for 5 mined blocks. We'll likely be rebalancing this again soon, but the requirement of a bit of thought and a risk in tunnel placement should reduce the mindless repetitive tunnel rushing that has been common for the past few hundred builds.

    Re: Stalemates
    We'll get there - this is partly map design and partly some goal/gamemode issues. A couple of maps have been adjusted to address this already but more changes need to be made; stalemates are definitely in my eyes the biggest issue at the moment. I'm aware that tunnels can and do help avoid this, but that's because they are basically cheese.

    Re: Knight Mobility Griping
    You can still double bombjump over 30+ tile high castles from the ground and jump up 8+ tile high walls, I fail to see the lack of mobility in the knight class tbqh.
     
    norill, Auburn and Asu like this.
  2. EhRa

    EhRa Ooooooof Staff Alumni Donator
    1. KRPG

    Messages:
    810
    Hate the new update. No skill what so ever involved in archer now. I used to be a pretty good archer but now, everyone just spams the shotgun, killing anyone in 1v1. Hate this update so much.
     
    FTWLAMA likes this.
  3. FTWLAMA

    FTWLAMA Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    30
    Yep, I can beat archers with the one and half shots but this new Legolas is more spammy and OP in CQC and will most likely result in a nerf down the line for archers. Tis a sad day in the kingdom.
     
    RadioActive likes this.
  4. EhRa

    EhRa Ooooooof Staff Alumni Donator
    1. KRPG

    Messages:
    810
    True that.
     
  5. FTWLAMA

    FTWLAMA Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    30
    Campers gonna camp regardless of a "buff" or nerf. Now the archer is more OP in CQC and like I said before, Geti forbid they nerf the archer for this new change.
     
  6. EhRa

    EhRa Ooooooof Staff Alumni Donator
    1. KRPG

    Messages:
    810
    Ik but now campers are waaaaaayyyy to powerful as campers.
     
  7. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    You're speaking with regards to a typical hastily thrown together outpost, and that's fine. However, IIRC the flag is 6 tiles tall. Put two layers on top of it to protect from knights blowing the top off, and most teammates can't climb over it now. Especially so if there's a dip in the ground at the back of the flag.

    I have ways of putting a 4 tile tall wall two spaces from the flag tower so people can mount-jump it, but everyone else just spams ladders. And ladders are taken out in a single slash, leaving your team with an unclimbable tower until someone fixes it.
     
  8. FTWLAMA

    FTWLAMA Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    30
    Hate to double post, but don't try to fight more than one enemy in mid to close range unless your a half shot and triple arrow bullet dodger.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 3, 2014, Original Post Date: Sep 3, 2014 ---
    Yes, hide in door spring out wit triple shot, you don't even have to aim for this and if you wanted to you could close your eyes.
     
    The-Cub likes this.
  9. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    I don't see the triple shot as an issue in archer duels, really.. But I guess if it turns out to be a problem, getting hit by an arrow could cancel your charge state so that single shots have a purpose (they are already much more effective bar cqc if you know how to aim)
     
    8x likes this.
  10. EhRa

    EhRa Ooooooof Staff Alumni Donator
    1. KRPG

    Messages:
    810
    Not really archer duels but more 1v1 knights and camping archers. It's too easy for the archer now.
     
  11. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    Sounds like you have been playing vs bad knights. You just have to keep your distance and they can't do shit.. when they make a mistake, move in, or if you have bombs, move in.
     
  12. EhRa

    EhRa Ooooooof Staff Alumni Donator
    1. KRPG

    Messages:
    810
    Ik but the "shotgun" makes it too easy to kill a knight now. I wish the made the shotgun two shots maybe.
     
  13. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    On the plus side for archers, shotgun has a higher chance to knock thrown bombs back at the knight if you aim well.
     
    EhRa likes this.
  14. FTWLAMA

    FTWLAMA Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    30
    Up close not even aiming you get a insta-kill on archers and builders.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 3, 2014, Original Post Date: Sep 3, 2014 ---
    I could shoot bombs before the new Legolas. If youcan't do CQC you shouldn't get a handicap, in this case a spammy one.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 3, 2014 ---
    Nooooess, see it seems this will cause a nerf.
     
  15. EhRa

    EhRa Ooooooof Staff Alumni Donator
    1. KRPG

    Messages:
    810
    Nerf for shoutgun = BEST NERF EVA
     
    Medieval likes this.
  16. Medieval

    Medieval Arsonist

    Messages:
    95
    Come to play on Public servers, with 26 slots.
    See the arrows spam. see the archers only using the tripleshot. see the 10 archers camping only using the tripleshot.


    The update is good, except the new tripleshot. It really increased the numbers of archers spamming arrows, it's really hard now to progress if there is 5 archers in opposite team.
    It does not make the archers stronger, just making them spamming more. The previous tripleshot was better, and as powerful as it is now, without the arrow spam.
     
    The-Cub likes this.
  17. Malitha

    Malitha Shipwright
    1. SIEGE Clan - SIEGE

    Messages:
    131
    I just hopped onto a black death server. Right off the bat I saw that there was a decrease of knights and an increase of archers. [Not necessarily saying thats bad but ehhh KAG's main offensive force was the knight from quite a few builds back, changing this makes it feel quite unexpected].
    The main issue I think I should address here are the "archer shotgun bows"

    Lets say that your a knight, and your busy fighting a couple of knights when all of a sudden an archer pops up and shot guns you in the face. R.I.P
    Not to say, The triple shot involves just spamming arrows with pretty much zero skill at all. One archer alone at a distance may not pose a threat with the new shotgun ability, But if you think of archers in a pack while your distracted fighting knights some distance away, You'd most likely end up dead due the legolas shotgun barrage which they will unleash from behind their knights. It just makes it feel like killing a knight is too easy now, where in the previous build it was always a challenge to take down a good knight.

    All it takes are pretty much 2 archers to fuck up a knight with bombs. One would just water bomb him while the other would go right up close to him and shotgun him. Even if the knight did have one heart left, a simple archer half-shot could take him down. I just think that the archers amount of offensive power and agility is just too overwhelming because of the shotgun legolas. I think that this should be fixed asap [I can confidently say that the new legolas shot is worse than the jab spammers]. [You could just shield the jab spammers for that matter]
     
  18. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    You're forgetting that archers are piss poor for offense. Defense is their main role now, which I like. Water arrows should be nerfed to non-aoe though.
     
    Medieval likes this.
  19. Saucy-Gibbon

    Saucy-Gibbon Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    12
    jesse louise Geti the triple-shot was a far more well-rounded, useful and in my opinion, superior feature. I think the archer class has been mangled badly - here are my main concerns:

    1. With the Legolas you could shoot effectively and accurately from long distances, whereas the shitegun just haphazardly disperses arrows outwards, which fundamentally defeats the prior long-range skill of the archer class.
    2. Thus, the average shotgun archer becomes (to be effective) a mid-to-short-range player who depends upon both chance when firing their multidirectional arrows and, more importantly the power of numbers.
    3. All the matches I've played under 1233 have been stalemates involving large numbers of either door/defence hugging or gang-roaming shotgun archers who capitalise on distracted knights with their overwhelming spams of arrows.
    4. My fave, the super close-range, super infuriating "knock back" dealt out by bold use of the Legolas has been severely incapacitated, especially in water-combat, due to the multidirectional dispersion of arrows.
    5. The offensive archer is a little redundant due to the nerfing of the knock-back and the newfound crowds of shotgun spammers.

    Considering the bulk of archers (questionably) depend upon the triple-shot/shotgun, you've drastically reduced the skill ceiling required, and as a result, the quality of matches. I think the other dev changes, bar the tunnels, are top notch, but I think this archery really needs mending.
     
    The-Cub and Medieval like this.
  20. Leo

    Leo Bison Rider

    Messages:
    503
    It seems to me that in every build archers are becoming better and better and the knights getting worst. How about if we remove knights all together ? That would "solve" all issues.
     
    Lumeos and Fuzzle like this.