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Dev Blog BUILD 1337 - Back on Track

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Geti, Dec 23, 2014.

  1. Rainbows

    Rainbows KAG Guard Forum Moderator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    985
    lies
    you have only made them realise how much they can fuck around with grappling hooks
     
    hierbo and FuzzyBlueBaron like this.
  2. dayleaf

    dayleaf Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Thieves Guild

    Messages:
    255
    I like the update, except the archer part.

    What people tried to avoid: Camping archers

    What (indirectly) this update made: Camping archers

    bassically ---> Archer slower > you cant dodge too much now > people dont like dying > best solution > camping > profit?

    Bassically one of the advantages of the archer was being fast, now they arent, and people is now using the other advantage, being a ranged camper.

    "Archers still have the grappling hook, they are still fast"
    Point 1: not all the archers are super pros at grappling
    Point 2: knights have more movility now

    Conclusion,
    This is a knight watching how one archer tries to do his job.
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Dargona1018

    Dargona1018 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    569
    Also, adding to the fact of there being more camping archers, archers are severely nerfed by the community playing them as campers, which is what every update before this made them not be. So, us 'leet urcherz' have no terrible archers to kill (I mean, come on, no real man sits behind platforms. :rektlord:) > less gold > less special arrows, mines, kegs, etc > less support > knights get butt handed to them.

    Or, the other team is all knights > infinite shield > infinite health > no gold/support > being an archer is a disadvantage since you can't help/1 less knight against the hordes > your team loses because you are 2pro2goknight.*

    In all, I believe that this update hurts the more experienced archers more than the regular, as having to camp for noobs is actually helping them, but kinda breaking matches. Or, ya know, more knights (which being inherently easier than archer) and it being actually 9v10 (or 8v10, depending on who has more players).

    *And yes, you could just farm coins and spew water arrows, but I don't think that quite "legit plays" within in logical speaking since most people think water-arrows and farming coins as a builder as "being a baide"
     
  4. Verzuvius

    Verzuvius Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    545
    DAGIR xD
     
  5. swagbot

    swagbot Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    81
    @ the comments regarding camping archers: I enjoy the build-and-destroy aspect camping (archers) inspire(s). An archer nest is just another target (aside from players, shops, deposits, general transportation/outposts, and flag fortifications) for support items (bombs, etc) and sieging. Yes, a camping archer's coin income is probably less than an aggressive archer, so the pace has been slightly slowed if the casual archer is encouraged by the game mechanics to camp; but is that a bad thing? As a builder, I wouldn't mind less bomb arrows being flung onto my base in a full pub match. Most maps generally don't have enough stone to keep up with the destruction for 40+ mins. And if the gold deposits on the map aren't large enough, the pace can come to a grinding halt with no tunnels, esp. considering some maps devolve into a water-death-pit. Boats definitely have their place in the death pit- a war boat serves as a great spawning outpost, but a (secured) tunnel is, if anything, an upgrade from a war-boat (albeit you can upgrade your war boat outpost by enclosing it with blocks to help secure it from falling into enemy hands, but some map designs don't really cater to this by not having backwall along the ocean). Being able to upgrade your transportation/outposts helps to define lanes in a map and gives the match more depth. In other words, a (slightly) slower pace encourages (slightly) more teamwork to coordinate a successful siege while discouraging mindless camping and putting less of a demand on resources, which helps prevent a map from fizzling out due to exhausted resources. Yes, the archer's skill cap has been raised, but the former is a more rewarding play style while benefiting the casual map makers and builders more. This archer nerf really doesn't shit on the casual community that much.

    The questions that're begging to be explicitly asked are: Should the mechanics embrace the chaotic Unreal Tournament style of gameplay, or a slower more methodical style? Should that fun (the game mechanics) be more centered around the casual community, or the hardcore community?

    And I agree, the classes don't have to be perfectly balanced; a ranged (combat-support) class has it's perks, and a short ranged combat class has it's perks. The items (as well as the builder class, among other things) help to level the playing field for a given play-style, esp. a play style that compliments a given class (using bombs to counter grapple-kiting archers, campers, etc).
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2015
    kodysch likes this.
  6. dayleaf

    dayleaf Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Thieves Guild

    Messages:
    255
    (If you are too lazy to read all the text i just wrote go down)

    Every archer in this game had to camp when the circunstances force them to do it, for example, just in front of your base there are 5 knights, getting out, doesn't matter how pro you are, you are dead... that's when you go to an archer nest, but, when you start kicking those knights in the doors and your team "locks" them in their castle (bassically what happened to you) where are you going to camp? ask a builder for make one archer nest in the middle of the map? they won't stop building their beautiful things for you, and camping while you should attack is being useless.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Now if we talk about a flat map, where both teams are massively fighting in the middle of the map, you can't camp in your base because it's too away from the battle and you can't nonscope360shieldbreakershotgun because the slowdown will kill you [(another time indirectly) bombs/slashes].
    If you talk about pure defense(camping), this update wont affect that thing, but it will affect the others 2 circunstances (i divided them by a line) which are "attacking" and "helping in the middle" are very affected by the update.

    What im trying to say is: the archer is meant to avoid attacks (which requires speed) not to camp in the distances spamming arrows ( That doesnt requires skill and you know it)
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2015
    Dargona1018 likes this.
  7. Fernegulus

    Fernegulus Drill Rusher

    Messages:
    400
    implying your life is worth something for the team
    no idea what you just said
    "camping" is how you choose to call supportive, safe attack from the distance. The archer is meant to do it. He has a ranged main weapon and low HP and is vulnerable to any bomb attack. You're wrong.
    aiming properly requires a considerable amount of skill. it's the shotgun shot which doesn't.
     
  8. dayleaf

    dayleaf Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Thieves Guild

    Messages:
    255
    1- It is, every life is worth for the team.
    2- Knights are in front of the base, you start killing them and gain terrain, and then, you trap them in their base.
    3- I can see you didnt read a single paragraph, what about the attacking and the fighting for the middle circuntances? if the archer is meant to camp, then we all should go knight but when we are losing all go archer? im not sure if im the wrong one...
    4- in any circunstance, just spam arrows until you hit someone.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2015
  9. Dargona1018

    Dargona1018 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    569
    The thing about archers supposed to be a support has been disproved thousands of times with all of the pro archers showing that they are so much more effective while in close-to-mid range combat, and I think Geti thought that too with the shotgun.
     
    kodysch and dayleaf like this.
  10. Thiamor

    Thiamor Horde Gibber
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    413
    Just because someone is better with another class doesn't change the fact it's still support. You won't ever say a Builder isn't for support, but you all argue whether or not the archer is just because of the sheer power they possibly CAN have if used by a pro. How it is used via skill level is just that. It doesn't change that it's still mainly a supporting class since there's more newbie archers than that of the pro-variety.
     
  11. Fernegulus

    Fernegulus Drill Rusher

    Messages:
    400
    Well dayleaf you're saying that not everyone is a pro
    obviously
    Making a good game doesn't mean making a game which requires no skill, ffs.
    Just because newbies are bad and die, doesn't mean the game is bad... It's the fucking opposite
    If someone has skill, he's effective, if someone has no skill, he's not effective
    Why is that bad

    Also
    fuck no
    your life alone is worth nothing
     
  12. dayleaf

    dayleaf Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Thieves Guild

    Messages:
    255
    I dont know if you get what im trying to say, i never said the game is bad, or that because newbies are bad and die that meant the previous sentence is true, im saying other class of things, like transforming one class in a camping one isnt the best idea of the world, however, i wont try to make you fully understand what i tried to say, i know which class of comments and replies you make, so nope... (in a 10 vs 10 game, if 1 die, the team loses "power" even if he is teamworking or soloing, i guess you like being the hero of the match ,eh?)
     
  13. PinXviiN

    PinXviiN Bison Rider

    Messages:
    494
    I think the last 11 pages are nothing but arguing over archers... Mainly.
    My only complaint about this new update is the voting system. It only takes one person to say yes for a player to be kicked.
     
    Fuzzle and link6155 like this.
  14. link6155

    link6155 Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    534
    On my 1440p screen the voting box appears tiny on it, making it less noticeable for me. I've notice that people don't realize a vote is going on before it's to late. I've been through a few matches where the losing team votes for next map and it actually passes because people don't see the box.
     
    Verzuvius and Fuzzle like this.
  15. Vamist

    Vamist Ballista Bolt Thrower Tester

    Messages:
    526
    I don't tend to notice the Voting box, it's to transparent, and not very noticeable
     
  16. Ricket

    Ricket Shipwright Staff Alumni
    1. Ethereal Legion- ETHER

    Messages:
    106
    After playing for a few hours, here are my thoughts:
    Archer changes are fab. I've been playing more archer, because I know how to use grapple. Basically, skill up, get good.
    Spike changes were so necessary, and I like how they work now. I can still drop without feeling like a glitch abuser! Plus, spike drops (low height) still have their use, mainly for stunning people as you escape. So that's good I suppose.
    Shield arc is just right: not noticeably op, nor particularly papery. :thumbs_up:
    One complaint is the voting. Can it be made draggable, something like that? It sits right under the mumble overlay (I think you can move that though...). You'd know this if you will ever played with us anymore @Geti :eek:
    But seriously, great update, great work. Well and truly back on track.
     
  17. swagbot

    swagbot Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    81
    Yeah, archers are combat-support. Their main role is as a support class, but can be used for an aggressive combat style, even in tdm. I've said it before, and i'll say it again. 1 good archer v 1 good knight = archer wins, and not because that archer was playing the support role... But the support role is definitely the casual role, and the combat archer- esp. in 1v1- is a more hardcore role.

    Your post doesn't make much sense to me and I'm pretty sure you're misunderstanding my position.

    So your question is, what's the archer to do once you've pushed the enemy's advance for mid back to their base? Yes, your builders should be establishing an outpost at mid. If you're an archer who has just helped push for mid, and no one is building to secure mid-zone and/or there's nothing for an archer to do at mid until a mid outpost is created, then you should turn into a builder to either 1) gather mats for the builders that know what they're doing or 2) go builder and help secure mid by initiating the building of an outpost at mid. Creating a secondary archer nest at mid is definitely an option, and one that has worked for me tons of times in the past. They can get easily and quickly destroyed, esp. on smaller maps, but your builders should be keeping up with base repairs and your knights should be hindering advances on the remaining battlefield. Also, it helps to keep the enemy's focus divided so they're not entirely focused on destroying your archer nest (albeit it's easy to repair when it's just a 4 platforms on a single side of a secure stone room, and often still functional when the plats are blown out if you've built it at a decent height). Consistent knight combat between mid-outpost and the enemy base is usually enough to distract from the nest (flow/keeping the pressure on the enemy is an important gameplay element. That's difficult to accomplish without tunnels, or even a poorly designed base that you have to climb entirely over to get to the battlegrounds), or begin tunneling toward the enemy base to raise some alarms. If the map has multiple lanes (which most maps do) then you can help push in the other lane to keep the pressure off your nest. Fake kegs would be another example of this pressure mechanic in play. But really what it comes down to is this: an archer nest at mid is optimal, but you don't need a nest at mid. In CTF I like to farm the fvck out of coins as a knight or builder, switch to archer, buy 3 bomb arrows, quickly grapple within safe distance of the enemy base (obviously when there's a break in the enemy's combat flow, or else i'm launching bombs from behind my knights fighting in the battlegrounds [not a bad option, you just have to be more aware of the combat taking place not far from you]) in an attempt to breach their defenses. I usually do this 2-3 times if I've had a good run as knight, and I almost always do it without the aid of an archer nest. The nest isn't needed if you're even remotely smart about when to siege. Push with your team and you'll do great. I know it's a mind blowing concept that a support role should push with it's team, but I'm glad I could be the first person to champion it for you.

    And to be clear, it's best if you build your mid outpost and subsequent archer nest out of reach of bomb arrows from the enemy's main tower. This way you draw your enemy out of their base for them to even attempt to destroy your archer nest and regain ground at mid. An archer nest is just a great building for holding off enemy advances on mid/your outpost or front tower, if it's built close to the enemy front tower it'll instantly become a target for bombs and bomb arrows.
     
  18. dayleaf

    dayleaf Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Thieves Guild

    Messages:
    255
    Good to know there is someone that will disagree with you but still being kind, we clearly have our opinions about the archer in this update, however, the last pages are only talking about this and i guess its time to stop.
     
  19. kaggit

    kaggit Arsonist

    Messages:
    176
    Been trying to fix seclevs for weeks but still nothing. I have a purple name on my server tho I added my name in superadmin.cfg :c no caps. my username has no caps in it. Is this a known issue? if so is there a fix or is it getting fixed in the next update?
     
  20. blackjoker77777

    blackjoker77777 Drill Rusher Tester
    1. Zen Laboratories

    Messages:
    440
    ok bro , fixing this isn't hard at all just follow me:
    1)open your KAG main folder
    2)open autoconfig.cfg
    upload_2015-1-4_18-25-12.png
    3)go to those:
    security_whitelist = ../Security/whitelist.cfg
    security_blacklist = ../Security/blacklist.cfg
    security_ignorelist = ../Security/ignorelist.cfg
    security_seclevs = ../Security/seclevs.cfg

    and change them to this:
    security_whitelist = /Security/whitelist.cfg
    security_blacklist = /Security/blacklist.cfg
    security_ignorelist = /Security/ignorelist.cfg
    security_seclevs = /Security/seclevs.cfg

    upload_2015-1-4_18-27-27.png

    and save it
    4)right click on dedicatedserver.bat
    5)choose edit:
    upload_2015-1-4_18-28-26.png
    6)change autoconfig ../autoconfig.cfg
    to
    autoconfig /autoconfig.cfg
    upload_2015-1-4_18-30-35.png
    and save it
    7)run your server and have fun (^_^)
    <My name is purple too in my server, whenever you join a server through LAN your name will be purple>
    PS:sorry if this isn't the right place to post this but I just tried to help those who couldn't fix this common seclevs problem like @kaggit ::):
     
    Dargona1018 and Potatobird like this.