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Build 67 Pros/Cons, Issues, Suggestions

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Snow, Jun 25, 2011.

  1. Snow

    Snow Guest

    I think we should make a sticky for each build so that the forum doesn't have 20 threads about different issues per build.

    As always, great work. The physics are fantastic, good couple of bugs are killed, and interesting CTF.

    After playing a few rounds.. there were a few issues and suggestions making rounds through the chat.

    1. SERIOUS EMPHASIS ON THIS ONE!!! Outposts are too easy to destroy. 1 bomb takes it down. A knight or builder can swat it down within seconds. I spent 15 minutes one round evading enemy knights and scrounging wood from extra ladders just so that I could finally build one. I finished it, then some idiot on our team decided before he left the game he would grief. He jumps up on the platform where I had just finished, tosses a bomb, quits... and within seconds of being completed, my outpost is destroyed. If it took 5 bombs to destroy one.. they might stand a better chance to be used for a bit. Sometimes you need one right away before you can build walls around it. Otherwise the builders have to travel far and if they keep dying.. anything they build is destroyed by the time they get back.

    Bottom line is outposts take a lot of effort to build as it takes time to collect enough wood and gold and you also have to build a room around them with doors pretty much which takes a lot of stone. It's too much for them to be so easily destroyed. Everytime now that I try to build an outpost in a strategic location.. it's barely used because it's very quickly destroyed before anyone can defend it.

    2. When archers and knights loot, they sometimes end up with lots of building material. Most didn't bother to give it to builders. In fact no one seemed to bother giving any materials even on request. I tried to build a small fort to house an outpost and possibly hold a catapult. I asked several times for wood or stone.. so I wouldn't have to leave the structure, I could keep building and keep blocking off enemies trying to destroy it. Server was full. Many passed me by and had enough time to mash "E" for a second. No luck. Archers and knights were too busy fighting to getting to the battle and most builders were busy digging tunnels which inadvertently kept letting in the enemy. I had an idea, which is if archers and knights loot and have material for more than 5 to 10 minutes - it gets automatically distributed to builders on the team. Knights would give up wood and stone. Archers would just give up stone. Some can't make it to a builder to give away anyway as they're stuck somewhere battling or are too far away.

    3. Despite that the physics are awesome.. my feeling is it would be nice if they were optional. You can still kill sky bridges - just put in a rule that every horizontal row of ladders needs a column of x many beneath every 5th or 6th one. A sky bridge could still be possible, but would take way too long as the builder would have to continually build down every nth piece. Plus, having a classic mode or no physics mode would be nostalgic. The classic game was what we all fell in love with. If or once we have both classic and ctf mode - it would be nice to compare popularity over time. "Crush traps" though a good idea seem to be a scarce thing to happen. In several rounds so far over the past days in this build and test version a team would build forts with very thick walls or just a thick wall so that it's next to impossible to destroy the building by causing it to fall. By the time you tunnel into a side, you're either killed or the enemy is repairing it. I have barely seen a keep like they used to be built. Perhaps players aren't realizing that background walls are enough for support and the building can still be difficult to take down via gravity.
     
  2. Thorn

    Thorn Guest

    I played build 67 pretty much all night tonight. Here are some great improvements I enjoyed:

    - Combat (particularly with the knights) is greatly improved. Kudos!
    - Physics engine looks and acts awesome.
    - Outposts are a great addition.
    - Nerfing skybridges is for the best.
    - Knights only having one bomb is da bomb.

    Good job on these improvements. I like the CTF idea, but I am also glad that it will only be one of several game modes in later releases because the classic gold hunt is also a fun way to play. I am a bit nostalgic for the old game mode already even though it had its problems, too.

    And now for the cons. Sad to say but the new physics, cool as they are, are making things much easier for griefers who want to cause trouble. A few swings of a hammer or a few bombs at the base of a structure, and BOOM, instant gratification for them. And if a really solid fortification goes down because teammates are sabotaging it from the inside, that can literally destroy an hour's work (as it did in one match tonight).

    Tonight I observed that there was always at least one or more people on my team who were doing the following things at all times:

    - Bombing friendly castles
    - Bombing spawn
    - Covering spawn with spikes for no reason
    - Spawn tunneling
    - Demolishing friendly castles with builders
    - Ragequitting after demolishing or bombing said castles
    - Mouthing off
    - Generally being jackasses
    - And so on.

    If KAG was cripplied by griefing before, it's paraplegic now. I hope when the account system is implemented it has a reputation system of some kind, something to keep track of how many times a person has been banned/kicked, so that griefers can be easily identified. And maybe if a person has been banned enough times they could have their account suspended, or perhaps their bad reputation simply wouldn't allow them to join a server if that server only accepts people with a clean or adequate reputation score... Just a thought.

    It's still a great game. It's sad that so many assholes are out there who are trying to ruin it, but that's not really the developer's fault, now is it? :)
     
  3. FinDude

    FinDude KAG Guard Tester

    Messages:
    123
    All of these issues seem to be caused by stupid people. I don't think it's the game maker's duty to fix that.
     
  4. Kagesha

    Kagesha KAG Guard Tester

    Messages:
    224
    its kinda hard to stop griefers when you can have unlimited bombs (can also be exploited for unlimited arrows/wood) by switching classes at an outpost/spawn.
     
  5. Neat

    Neat King of the Dead Donator Tester

    Messages:
    1,958
    Perhaps you can make something out of gold and put it in your building that would cause all bombs by your teammates to do 0 damage against stone/ladder/backwalls connected to that object? However, enemy bombs would still work. This would prevent griefers and bombers who are bit weak at throwing them and avoiding damaging their own buildings. Maybe this object can be some sort of team symbol, like a shield with a team logo on it, showing that the building belongs to that team. The shield could be placed only on background wall. If an enemy occupies the building they would have to destroy the shield before they could put their own shield on the back wall.

    An added bonus of this is that it boosts sense of belonging in fortresses and buildings and also they would look pretty! Maybe builders could put more than one shield up, and only when the last shield in the building is destroyed can the enemy take the fortress for themselves.
     
  6. HA1TER

    HA1TER Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    172
    I have problems whit dedi now...
    Before i could not connect from my PC to my server.Now i can connect to it but no one re-spawn...You can just look at the map and cant choose teams or anything :( It is the same even from another PC and over browser and IP...
    Am i missing CTF folder?
    I see there is a line whit (Rules/CTF/gamemode.cfg) but i dont have it.What to do?
     
  7. Snow

    Snow Guest

    Well I must say and I'm going to add this quick here. My complaint about no one giving up any resources they looted, don't need, etc must be server specific. I just played on the Euro Server and what wild round. Everyone that passed me by loaded me up. Some did it as a reward if I helped them out with a ladder or blocking off enemies. The game is still on right now and both sides are pushing back and forth.

    The server I played a few hours on before was a US server, those games were one sided and no help/teamwork. Go figure.
     
  8. scombinator

    scombinator Guest

  9. R. J.

    R. J. Guest

    Honestly saying I loved previous game mode more.
    Why? There are lots of new good features.
    But those outposts make the game less tactical and completely full of "meat".
    I mean when a player respawns and in three seconds he is already engaged in a combat- not fearing to die, as he will respawn once again near by.
    But that is my IMHO.
     
  10. HA1TER

    HA1TER Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    172
    Cant change class while someone is standing in front of me whit that little could over his head.He re-spawn and press ESC or ENTER and does not move...Also,i was tryng to vote out a some guy and as i was writing the reason i got killed.Menu closed and i re-spawned whit buged menu so i had to rejoin!
     
  11. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    Good idea, snow. Stuck so that it's all in one place - I'm going overseas soon so anything to make better use of my time ;)

    ...FinDude did you mean to post that here?

    I think we need serverside flags for everything gameplay specific - physics or not, limited classes, etc.
    I'll pester Michal about it more.

    I've told him about the Segfaults.


    I've got to run, I'll come and address everything next time I'm free :)
     
  12. saniblues

    saniblues KAG Guard Tester

    Messages:
    418
    Pros:
    [​IMG]

    b67 has the best bugs
     
  13. FinDude

    FinDude KAG Guard Tester

    Messages:
    123
    Geti, what are you talking about? :U

    Anyways, yeah. I think the map getting demolished in large matches could be avoided by reducing score limit as playercount grows.
     
  14. HA1TER

    HA1TER Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    172
    When i die and my bomb kill people,it doesent count!So when i suicide and kill 4+ people it counts only my death :s
     
  15. vig

    vig KAG Guard Tester

    Messages:
    8
    Issues:

    1. If somebody builds a stone wall around the tent, there is no way of destroying the wall from the inside.
    2. Infinite free stone bug, contact me privately if you want to know how to reproduce it.
    3. it takes too many hits/ arrows to destroy a corpse
    4. picking up arrows with E can give resources to teammates...
    5. firing the catapult can give resources to teammates...
    6. collapsing a large structure of stone generates weird shit on the impact surface (can be gold, trees, tree stumps, underground tiles)
    7. building spikes in a pit and falling on them can destroy background cave walls along with the spikes and sometimes the destroyed bg. wall won't allow new spikes to be built there. Ladders tear holes in caves also.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    8. switching between classes generates infinite resources and promotes spawn camping.
    9. Bedrock can be destroyed with bombs.
    10. Dropped flag never returns to base on its own.
    11. Respawn timer freezes (sometimes) and doesn't let you respawn.
    12. If you are supposed to respawn at an outpost and it gets destroyed, you respawn in the top left corner of the map
    13. Commas look like full stops in the chatbox (, = .)
    14. anything built on the surface (where cave meets sky) doesn't collapse if the dirt is removed from below.
     
  16. FinDude

    FinDude KAG Guard Tester

    Messages:
    123
    These 'corrupt tiles', so to speak, cannot be built upon and are permanent, as far as I can tell. They have a random sprite.
     
  17. Furai

    Furai THD Team THD Team Administrator

    Messages:
    3,124
    And the other way around - dots look like commas in chat.
     
  18. Mechanoid

    Mechanoid Guest

    Bomb shockwaves should not destroy blocks, only blocks immediately next to the bomb itself should be destroyed. Most people build shorter towers now with the physics in place, and when a bomb explodes by the front door, any single-tile non-background wall supported structure immediately above WILL come crashing down because the shockwave knocked out the only supporting tile for that overhang. Yes, people could build background walls to support the thing, but the fact remains that parts of a castle are getting blown up that are nowhere near the bomb itself. (like say, the ceiling)

    Bombs should only be given out when the player has died and respawned at the headquarters. Even now with only 1 bomb a player can still (suicide) bomb buildings and bedrock in part thanks to the new outpost, by setting one up nearby, and then just respawning at the outpost with a new bomb, or throwing down bombs and changing class to get a new bomb. Class change at an outpost or HQ? No bombs. Spawn at an outpost? No bombs. Spawn at an HQ? 1 bomb. This will also make looted bombs rarer because if you're killing knights who spawn at outposts, they won't have any bombs to loot. But if you push the other team back to their HQ, all their knights will have bombs (and be tougher to fight or fight back because of it)

    Spikes are not obvious enough when a corpse is resting on top of them. So possibly another death sprite could be made, one that's been impaled on spikes and facing upwards (compared to normal downward-facing corpses) with spikes poking through the body, which screams "There are spikes there, so don't be stupid!"

    Deadlier spikes by building 1 additional spikes in the direction the spikes are oriented. So instead of being small things that look like it would hurt to step, fall, or run into, they would now look like DEADLY things to step, fall, or run into because now they're twice as long and can in theory penetrate twice as much and do more damage. (which cone looks deadlier, the shorter cone or the longer one? The longer one of course!) This has the added advantage of being easilly seen because now they're 2 tiles high/long which exceeds the dead-body height of 1 tile (and momentum would carry the corpse horizontally, so half of a tile or more would be exposed on horizontal spikes) Using the new physics, you could apply similar support rules for building those 'longer' spikes in various directions.

    Spikes on walls could be used as ladders when entered from above/below with no/little horizontal momentum. What are wall spikes but a very pointy set of cylinders which you could climb up? If lengthened spikes are possible as above, then these longer spikes could definitely be used as some kind of macabre ladder which let you climb and jump from them as normal, but not back onto them... And come on, what makes you feel more like a Ninja/Thief then climbing spikes into a castle? Nothing else, that's what.

    Fall damage. Please, do it now. Seriously. It is getting a bit strange that a builder can jump into the gorge in the middle of a map, and then ladder his team onto the other side and survive the entire task wether enemies are there to stop him or not. Also because if the spikes at the bottom of my death pit don't kill the dude who jumped in, the fall certainly should... But instead they don't, the dude lives, and then destroys all my spikes after falling into the pit. After a certain vertical velocity, it should also become impossible to control your horizontal movement in mid air, but preferably before you start taking fall damage; so you're falling into a deep pit, and can hit the wall spikes on your way down (which you normally wouldn't given you could control your movements)
     
  19. poe

    poe Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    29
    Fall damage IS in the game. It's just disabled by default so people don't use it.
     
  20. Vania

    Vania Guest

    Some suggestions:

    -Draw spikes in front of corpses, otherwise spikes are hidden by corpses.
    -Require spikes to be attached to a stone block.
    -Make spikes more visible.
    -Make bombs more visible too.
    -Physics implies buildings need a lot more materials now. Balance material requirements accordingly.
    -Remove block falling when support limit is reached, its annoying and useless. Just prevent placing it in the first place.
    -Limit team switching to only once per round.
    -Increase % of stone and thick stone as you go deeper in the ground. To keep the map in good shape.
    -When a spawn point is destroyed dont make me spawn at the beginning,
    spawn me at the nearest one from where I died.