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Build 866 - Interim Patch, Lots of Changes!

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by DevBlogger, Aug 31, 2013.

  1. LostPix

    LostPix Base Burner

    Messages:
    574

    All I have to say to this is god fucking dammit, give it a day or week to see how things play out, people try to get used to changes which are present.
     
    Froghead48 likes this.
  2. lol it doesnt even matter at this point, archers need satchels and pray that the opponent's halls are opened to assaults/covered with wood to do shit with the grapple.
    Grapple has a nasty delay and short range to make it annoying but not completely viable in CQC. Its main use is scaling walls and causing havoc but yeah, without something to actually threaten with killing stuff, archers remain annoying spammers that can be countered with raising your shield
     
    Fate likes this.
  3. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    I don't know what to say.


    They don't take potshots anymore [the main reason why they caused any damage in the first place]
    In favor for Multi Draw​
    They don't dodge anymore, they just, hang on a surface, ripe for the picking.
    In favor of Camping, and Multi Drawing​
    I think they forgot that the Graaple Hook is supposed to make it so that they can dodge out of the way of Knights.​
    Playing in TDM, either, it's the archers Multi Drawing, or not using their Grapple Hooks, but as a Knight, switching between Gliding and Sliding makes me clear the halfway point to literally obliterate them.​

    They think that Rappelling is the best use of the Grapple Hook and how an Archer should climb a wall
    It's slow, and cumbersome, even the wallclimb exploit that Knights use is faster and more reliable​
    It seems they forgot about Arrow Climbing completely.​
    On the same subject of TDM, archers spend most of their time trying to Rappel onto the top of the edge of the map, and Multi Draw, instead of using the Grapple Hook to be a "Speedster" as FBB eloquently put it​


    I'm sorry, but as it stands, archers are far from a speedster or a glass cannon, more of a Living Mounted Bow, that can only deal damage on the off chance that a Knight doesn't get the memo to hold their shield up. [It's a death of a thousand cuts]

    They believe too highly in the power of bomb arrows [easily blocked], Multi Drawing [easily blocked, rare stuns], and they completely forgot and forgot two defining features of their class, mobility [they can move fast] and agility [they can dodge, and have ease of travel].

    Anyways, as far as I'm aware, since Knights can jab twice in the time it takes to slash, it's no wonder why all the archers try to stay back, and spam arrows.

    POST SCRIPT
    Anyways, when I remember what else I'm thinking, I'll post it as a postscript.

    POST SCRIPT TWO
    Anyways, I don't really believe the necessity, or legitimacy of calling foul on all of this.
    If this is the result of an update, then by the gods.

    POST SCRIPT THREE
    The way you [EJ] put that makes me think that setting fires by Pyro Arrows has become an unreliable thing.
    PS(iv) I guess that means explosions, and knockback effects are not the only things that are wigging out, amisdt the strange server lag​
    If anything, archers are the main reason why I get such a high kdr now, and I have a lot of ease in infiltrating enemy halls, they open the door, and I can slip in with one slash, and the rest of the team is off fucking about as an archer, as I change the locks.

    PS(v)
    I think it's an issue when I can kill most of a team with one slash, or bomb [since they camp in once spot, as archers, that is], and steal their halls because they think a potshot with 1h arrows is an effective strategy, when I can no-sell it with a slash or jab.

    Well, the worst part is that they don't pull a potshot on me, when I go and do this sort of thing, either that, or I'm taking very little damage when they do.
     

  4. grapple is actually much much faster (granted that you dont suck), doesnt use arrows, you can even charge your bow when grappling.

    also arrow climbing might be taken out at some point since, you know, we have the grapple
     
    Digger101 likes this.
  5. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    Played a few hours today, didn't really see anything out of the blue "lag" wise but had quite high ping. Would like to know if anyone has been noticing strangeness again, there was a lot of last minute merging with old revisions due to some source control fuckups and something may have slipped in that shouldn't have.

    Foa/Boea while I think some of your points are good, it would be really great if you could explain them in a way that _doesn't_ read like a stream of every thought that popped into your head between opening the page and smashing POST REPLY.

    Re: Archers
    Camping: I have seen this, but I have also experienced no difficulty in dealing with it. If they're up very high, bomb jump or double bomb jump to them (if it's that important that they meet a swift death). If they're within 15 tiles or so just cook the bomb and toss it at them. If you're archer shoot them as per normal. If you're builder keep moving until you're able to find/build cover.
    I think the camping and huge amounts of easy kills is largely due to most players wanting to be very careful and then panicking when someone gets close. I've seen archers spamming click like a jab spamming knight (partially readying arrow over and over) in close combat, haha. Most have no idea what they're doing, so soak up the kills while you can.
    I think it's going to need a bit of time for the community at large to figure out how to play it best, helped along with as some buffs to sapping factories and vehicles most likely. Their damage output vs players seems fine at the moment - bad if you were to play 1v1 KvA on flat terrain, but good in the context of the game.

    Re: Bugs with slashing, grapple etc - Apologies for these, as Monsteri (and the blog post) said the build had to be pushed out (like it or not) so some API changes could happen over the weekend.

    Re: Death cam - MM has plans for an actual team spectator camera (ie looking at team-mates and team buildings) after a short focus on your corpse or the place you gibbed. I agree that the mouse panning was much nicer than the WASD only though, for sure :)
     
  6. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    Okay geti.

    I still like potshots.
     
  7. GangstaWarlock

    GangstaWarlock Builder Stabber

    Messages:
    12
    I think that the current ease of killing archers is definitely a symptom of the changes to the class and the influx of non-archers who are checking out the new mechanics. I speculate, therefore, that the balance of the changes cannot be assessed until they lose their novelty and are adapted to by seasoned players. Also, I noticed that the blinking Legolas shot charge indicator remains above the corpses of archers, presumably those killed whilst charging said shot.
     
    FuzzyBlueBaron and Ej like this.
  8. amgtree

    amgtree Bison Rider

    Messages:
    482
    Also some of the problems now are like this

    They change archers
    Everyone is archers
    Things become bs
    One guy becomes knight
    No more archers
    Archers complaining
    3 weeks later there is a balance of archers, builders, and knights.

    Also fall damage needs to be reduced a little bit
     
    Guitarman likes this.
  9. LostPix

    LostPix Base Burner

    Messages:
    574

    Heck I even cheated my way through it.
     
    Froghead48 likes this.
  10. rocky4321

    rocky4321 Horde Gibber

    Messages:
    21
    I miss my dagger :(
     
  11. amgtree

    amgtree Bison Rider

    Messages:
    482
    Sometimes you can manage to grapple through one block wide holes. I'm not reporting a glitch, I'm just metching it, because I think it would be cool if you could actually do that (100% of the time.) It would make some cool tower/archer nest designs.
     
  12. Oguh

    Oguh Builder Stabber

    Messages:
    23
    Point is almost noone was playing archer before. Now they are. That being said:
    When you aim from far away at max zoom out, the camera shakes around a lot making it hard to aim.
    I feel like arrows are thrown in a couple different way, meaning that the exact same shot can hit slightlty around the target. I don't like that at all.

    All in all archers are even easier to kill. One slash and it's done. I don't really know where the class is going though.

    Now to the thing I really don't like: No map.
    Okay the map is critical to a descent player to prevent the ennemy team getting one of your further away hall. I check the map constantly. It seems like it's a change that's wanted as it is on all the servers (unless it's a bug).
    Without the map I am forced to cycle teleport to every hall when I spawn to make sure everything is okay there. This is not fun at all. During the match I feel like I'm blind, I can't tell what is going on at all.
     
  13. LostPix

    LostPix Base Burner

    Messages:
    574
    I'm fine with less health for archer if you make this class more sneaky, crawling would be nice, playing dead never works as intended so it's useless unless you want to grapple the floor and pretend to be a snail or something, but fitting in tiny spaces would make this class worth playing.
     
    Crabmaster likes this.
  14. DrZaloski

    DrZaloski Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    225
    Although I like most of this update, I gotta say I really don't like the nerfed health for archer. As someone who played archer a lot since Beta, I'm getting killed about twice as much, because I have zero chance to get away if a knight gets too close. Also, I'm powerless to stop a knight humping himself up a tower, making my height advantage near useless. I think a lot of this could be balanced out by re-introducing stun, but I doubt many players want that. I sorta think that bomb arrows, if they hit a shield, should at least explode on the knight instead of just canceling out.

    Also, is it just me, or is the starter, although sexy as hell, is crashing constantly now? I'll get into detail on the bugs page, just thought I ought mention it, since it started happening with the update.

    Edit: I've just played a bit without crashing at all, so ignore that bit. I'll go ranting and raving on a bugs thread if I have similar problems again :D
     
  15. Landoo2

    Landoo2 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    186
    pls guys D : bring back the 3 lifes archer! archers have no chance! its boring just to snipe!
     
  16. amgtree

    amgtree Bison Rider

    Messages:
    482
    I agrea with DrZaloski somewhat. I hate how every tower is uselsess because of a knight just bomb jumping and cheesing his way into 10 archer kills.
     
  17. Nighthawk

    Nighthawk gaurenteed shitter

    Messages:
    793
    There's not even any such thing as sniping anymore, considering the fact that arrows are so weak with the update. Kinda sucks.

    Archers have gone from being a strategic ranged class to being little bugs that hop around erratically peppering people with tons of shots. I do not like this at all.

    Archers used to be able to beat Knights with two well-placed shots. Now full-power shots do 1 heart of damage, requiring FOUR fully-charged arrows to beat ONE Knight. Even an overcharge can't beat a Knight at full health in one volley, and it takes twice as long to overcharge as it does to fire one fully charged arrow, which only increases your damage output by about 33%.

    Which sucks compared to Knights who can do 4 hearts of damage in about two seconds.

    The overcharge doesn't even seem to be worth it, frankly. You waste a ton of time to charge it up, use up three arrows, and most of the time, unless you're close enough for people to be nearly hitting you with swords, you don't hit with all three.

    Grappling hook was a nice addition, but the other aspects of the Archer rehaul made them more annoying and less effective.
    The above rant is not me hating on the devs - it is me stating my issues with the current build. I fully realize that this build is subject to change and imbalance is to be expected at the moment. Please do not burn me at the stake for having an opinion.
     
  18. Crabmaster

    Crabmaster Bison Rider
    1. Zen Laboratories

    Messages:
    322
    Hmmm, part of me feels people need to learn how to play with the new archer abilities and part of me feels there needs to be some kinda balance! They DID say "Please note: we’re fully aware there will be a few balance issues (likely in the favour of knights) this build!" so give it some time for them to work it out!

    I feel giving the archers a limit to how long the Grapple holds in one place might help prevent those who camp up on the roof of some island or building and encourage constantly swinging around! Also maybe make the overcharged arrow shots shoot maybe two arrows instead? BUT make one of those two arrows, depending on which would be better designed for fairness, knock down shields? It seems the big issue with charged shots is how they all just plunk right off the shield like paper balls!

    Also, not sure about health, maybe if Knights didn't 1 hit KO every archer ever it'd be alright, but I feel it should either be 3 Heart Archers 4 Heart Knights, 2 Heart Archers 3 Heart Knights, or the Archers need an increase in damage output! (without making them ragequit worthy to fight!) or the Knights need a decrease in damage output! (Without making them weak enough to crumble to every archer ever!)
     
  19. amgtree

    amgtree Bison Rider

    Messages:
    482
    It is now starting to seem like a sugar coated nerf. Hopefully this will be fixed though. I kind of like the old archer, but I would still like the grapple
     
    Nighthawk likes this.