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Builder combat tweaks

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Ideas' started by Verzuvius, Jan 19, 2015.

Mods: Rainbows
  1. Verzuvius

    Verzuvius Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    545
    I think the builder pick is very annoying as it doesn't always hit. It is too much "randomness" which I personally hate.

    Therefor I have come up with a solution!

    BOULDER FOR THE WIN!!!

    I am gonna try to be as straight as possible.

    1. Pickaxe damage on enemies removed

    2. Boulder is only for builder - If another player of another picks up a boulder the player can't move

    3. Boulder prize decreased - 15 stone - 25 stone, the builder is supposed to be the builders main weapon

    4. Boulder damage decreased - Kinda how it's like now but the maximum damage is 4 hearts of damage. And if you get a boulder on your head you will take the damage and then the boulder will bounce off.

    5. Up to two, three or four boulders in inventory - A lot of nerfs so I think it wouldn't be "game-breaking"

    6. Enemy players can't pick up your builders - No throwing or backfires. The one with the boulder should have the advantage. And remember that the enemy can destroy it.

    I think that was all. If something is super-weird please comment! Have a good day, play some gather, stop the camping and please don't teamkill or grief! BB! :heart::smug::thumbs_up:
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2015
  2. kittycity

    kittycity Haxor

    Messages:
    256
    Then without a boulder a builder would run around with nothing
    Just keep boulders the same way and fix the hitbox with the pickaxe
     
    Noburu, Fernegulus, PinXviiN and 3 others like this.
  3. Verzuvius

    Verzuvius Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    545
    The devs can't fix the hitbox. :QQ:
     
  4. kittycity

    kittycity Haxor

    Messages:
    256
    Says who?
     
    hierbo and norill like this.
  5. hierbo

    hierbo Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    190
    Seems gimmicky. I have been able to get kills with a pickaxe, albeit rarely, and I think its pretty good that builders suck at fighting. However, I do like the idea of builders being the only one that can throw the boulder.

    I have long been a fan of the idea of streamlining the rules for the "big" items so they all behave the same, rather than the hodge-podge of different rules for different big items, like the boulder, crates, dinghies, kegs, etc.

    What I'd like to see, which goes along with your idea fairly well, is that all big items have the following effects, or similar:

    When carrying a "big" item (crate, keg, boulder, etc), a character:
    - has a substantially reduced movement rate
    - can't wall climb
    - cannot put the big item in inventory
    - has reduced jump height
    - can't use LMB or RMB actions

    ... except for builders, who suffer none of the above limitations, with the possible exception of the inventory one. This would dramatically reduce the nonsensical boulder battles, empower builders for better team support, eliminate the counter-intuitive (especially to newbies) "special case" rules that each large item seems to have, and make keg assaults more feasible to counter. I think all of those effects are beneficial to game balance and fun.
     
    Egholm, Corpsey and SirDangalang like this.
  6. SirDangalang

    SirDangalang Lvl. 128 MissingNo. Donator

    Messages:
    235
    One could say that the builders can put the team on their back bwahahahaha!

    But I like this idea, finally those muscles can be put to good use! :D
     
    Egholm, PUNK123 and hierbo like this.
  7. Thiamor

    Thiamor Horde Gibber
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    413
    Yeah, says who? Who here says they cannot fix the Builder hitbox? They can do it for Knights, there's nothing saying they can't do it for the Builder.
     
  8. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    Builder needs a full recode, the current hitting is based on commands which is why it's "laggy" and basically hits clientside -> plays badly with lag. It might get it over summer but there's a lot of other stuff to fit in there too. To be clear, it's already summer.

    No I'm not a fan of builder being a boulder-only class, haha

    Edit: re: big items - I agree, tbh. Anything medium or heavy weight should disable LMB/RMB - I'm considering making it for anything held TBH but I'd never hear the end of knights wanting to shield and slash and bomb at the same time.
     
    Noburu, Verzuvius and hierbo like this.
  9. Thiamor

    Thiamor Horde Gibber
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    413
    It might need to be considered if you do it, just to keep all items intended on being thrown (aside from kegs) to allow movement while using them. It'd make sense to at least make it where you can only do one action with it, instead of quickly going from attacking, to shield bashing when using and throwing bombs.
     
  10. tru0067

    tru0067 Ballista Bolt Thrower Tester

    Messages:
    165
    This would make kegs unusable. If you have the kind of mobility you're talking about you'd need an entourage just to leave your base, and getting to the enemy's base with lower speed, no wall run and reduced jump? It sounds like you want to make kegs unplayable. I'd be cool with disabling LMB actions, but not RMB. If you can't shield or grapple you're a sitting duck. And you would remove kegrappling, which is probably the most team work you will ever see in a casual game of KAG. I think kegs are fine the way they currently are. The fact that they can be knocked off your opponent makes them easily counterable, even by builders. I would like to see archers have an easier time about it, but I can't think of a way to do so without breaking the game.

    I agree that carrying crates is just a tiny bit silly. It doesn't make sense that you have full mobility when carrying them. But I still think disabling LMB actions would be a sufficient nerf.

    Boulders would be fine with a damage nerf, or perhaps a mobility nerf, and I agree that you shouldn't be able to put them in your inventory. But with the mobility nerfs you're talking about they would be unusable.

    If anything dinghies and boats in general need a buff. They are so underused (although their crates should still act like normal crates).

    If you were unable to slash or shield while using a bomb they would be next to useless. You'd literally have to light and throw them from range so that you're not left open. I hope that no one wants to see that happen. Most of the best fights I've ever had involve a race against the bomb timer, or an epic bomb toss. They don't need to be nerfed. You'd also be incapable of bomb jumping in the air, meaning you have to place it on the ground, which would destroy your own teams buildings incredibly quickly, or necessitate bomb jump platforms, which is ridiculous. You said you'd never hear the end of knights complaining, so I thought I'd get in early.

    I completely agree that medium or heavy items (crates, kegs, boulders, dinghies) should disable LMB, but not RMB.
     
    Dargona1018, hierbo and Blue_Tiger like this.
  11. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

    Messages:
    899
    Not a fan of boulder being a builder's only weapon, but I am a fan of builder being boulder's only user. Fuck archers running around with boulders acting like they have skill because they can push spacebar. Also, boulders should be cheaper so they are used more often and maybe make them not slow you down much or at all so they are a more viable weapon. I complain boulders are OP, but that is only true for archers. They are really fiddly as a builder because you have to carry a boulder as well as switching out to mats every 2 seconds, as well as needing a good position in order to use the boulder effectively.

    @hierbo how to make kegs and boulders useless 101.

    @Geti how to make bombs useless 101.
     
  12. hierbo

    hierbo Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    190
    What I am hearing is, "If you change things, they won't be the same anymore!".
    I *do* think boulders should be less useful in combat; they're broken. You should've seen them before, when you could use them to melt through a base like a hot knife through butter. I want their hand-to-hand combat usefulness to be near zero, because THEY'RE BOULDERS. Your character already has a badass medieval weapon; why is the big rock the go-to? Put those things in a catapult where they belong. Hell, make them better in a catapult if need be. I find it much more streamlined and understandable to make like items behave alike. All these items are like in that they are "big".

    Regarding the kegs: Consider that 1 knight with 1 keg can completely level, or at less blow a hole the size of a truck into a base. This is just too much and too quick for one player to be able to do alone in just a few seconds. If you make the keg bearer a sitting duck, he'll need backup from HIS TEAM to protect him while he delivers the keg. He could also light it and hand it to a builder (not impeded by big objects), who can run it up to the base while the knight covers him. THAT'S teamwork. My proposal makes teamwork a MUST regarding kegs, not a luxury.

    Long story short, every game tweak like this affects the game and metagame a lot. You can't just nix ideas as bad because it makes the current gameplay strategies impossible. The GOAL is to change current gameplay strategies.

    I don't mean to make it sound like I think you guys are foolish at all. I know you're just passionate about your point of view. Please, though, try to think beyond the immediate effects of a gameplay change to how the whole metagame is affected. @Geti 's proposal is no different; an effort to shake things up in hopes to hit on something that's more fun. It is possible we'll stumble on a great new metagame, but we won't if we don't try things.
     
    Egholm likes this.
  13. Thiamor

    Thiamor Horde Gibber
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    413
    I am not sure on this so don't hold this against me, but I think the only thing that can be done about boulders, aside from making them not a hand to hand weapon (which they won't ever take out) is making them like how they nerfed spikes, based on distance. Other than that, I think they can't change the damage dealt, but if so, can the weight of it be changed, and would it change how hard it hits people?
     
    hierbo likes this.
  14. Potatobird

    Potatobird Haxor Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    777
    I like builder combat as it is
     
  15. tru0067

    tru0067 Ballista Bolt Thrower Tester

    Messages:
    165
    You ever tried to attack a base with a keg by yourself? Sure if there is no one around it's easy, but defenders can easily stop you. Archers will shoot the keg off your back every 5 seconds. A builder can just jump on you, swing his pick once, and then run away with the keg. Other knights are more mobile than you and just about every slash will knock the keg off. Also the timer for a keg is surprisingly long, it doesn't take just a few seconds, unless they light it on the way to the front of your base, in which case archers will have a field day. In addition, the explosion of the keg means that enemies have to stay away, giving you time to dash in and repair. It takes a good solid rush to get that keg to your base, and if they're able to do it, they deserve it the amount of destruction it does.

    Kegs aren't op because they are easily countered by defenders. It would be nice to see kegs disabling LMB, as then archers and builders would have an easier time soloing someone with a keg. But that would be all it needs to make it balanced.

    I appreciate your sentiment, but I still think we shouldn't mess with something if it's fine the way it is. It could be nice to make these changes and test them to see if they work, perhaps on a "modded" server. But they shouldn't be imposed on the whole community unless it is proven to work.
    The damage is proportional to distance idea is a good one. It works well with spikes. I'd like to see boulders become builder only (they really are op with archers, and knights have a sword anyway). If they did become builder only I think they would be balanced, as...
    I also think that boulders launched by cata's should be buffed, as this is really underused. It's a good mechanic, and works well, but just loading the stone into the cata and firing it normally does pretty much the same damage (albeit in more time) without the added hassle.
     
    Noburu, FuzzyBlueBaron and hierbo like this.
  16. Thiamor

    Thiamor Horde Gibber
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    413
    You know what I'd like to see, and it has nothing to do with builders' fighting style, etc, but I always wished we had a mix/match building system where you build a shop that allows you to connect parts from one thing onto parts from another, to make a completely new thing.
     
  17. hierbo

    hierbo Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    190
    I have. Naturally, If you blindly run into the enemy blender, you'll die when carrying a keg. I have found that all you have to do to be highly successful with a keg is to wait a safe way back for a little while, and watch the kill reports in the upper right. When you see a time when several of the enemies die in a short time, you make your move. I find that in many games, even this is not necessary, as bases are seldom heavily defended. Remember that the knight merely has to get to the wall and drop the keg before his combat readiness is restored. He can defend the keg himself if defenses are light and he doesn't mind blowing up (which he doesn't if he's smart).

    Now, I'm not saying that a poorly defended base should get a free pass. However, this is ONE player with ONE keg that can undo the work of a team of builders in seconds. That sort of impact must require a team effort in order to be balanced with other tactics.

    Just look at base-related combat as-is. Do people use siege weapons on bases in order to take them out? I can answer that one: almost never. They repeatedly bomb, keg, and bomb arrow it. It seems odd that the best way to lay siege does not involve siege engines, doesn't it?

    Blowing open a base by yourself with a keg isn't a sure thing, but it is far from difficult , as long as you're astute enough to wait for the right time to do so.
     
    Egholm likes this.
  18. Verzuvius

    Verzuvius Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    545
    I actually just want the devs to fix the pickaxe. I think they have known about the bug for a long time but still there haven't been any change. Something has to be done.
     
    Noburu likes this.
  19. Thiamor

    Thiamor Horde Gibber
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    413
    It's the hitbox. They already said that it's trouble trying to fix it.
     
  20. Verzuvius

    Verzuvius Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    545
    I know, that's why I proposed an alternative way to deal with the problem.
     
Mods: Rainbows