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Builders are too important

Discussion in 'Classes & Mechanics' started by AJFaas, Sep 24, 2015.

  1. AJFaas

    AJFaas Base Burner
    1. supr sekrit cln [skrt]

    Messages:
    164
    Hello guys,

    Builders are just too important... kthxbye

    ...


    No but really. When youre in ctf and you arent blessed with a half decent builder and the other team is, the other teams victory is atleast 97% assured.
    Patient builders can just go below the ground and get to your base eventually and cause total wreckage when they get there, and impatient builders can tag along with one succesful rush and dig themselves in right before your base. Ive noticed that the only thing that can destroy a builder whos dug himself in, in most cases, is another builder. There is no other way unless youre willing to molest your own base to get to him.
    Im sure many builders will take offense to this because it takes alot of effort to build well, I see this too. But in the end builders are just too damn game dominating. They matter too much. You can win without knights. You can win without archers. But you cant win without a builder. Also on a sidenote trampcannons are also way too game dominating. I like being launched to the other side in a heartbeat but cmon lets be reasonable here its just too stronk. I dont think they had air strikes in medieval times.

    Thanks for listening.
     
    Sytoplasma, DatNobby, Magmus and 6 others like this.
  2. RampageX

    RampageX Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    195
    This is true, builder is the hardest class to learn and its one of the most important in a game. Pretty much why there aren't to many people that play builder, they aren't willing to learn it or they get frustrated when they are learning it. Tramp cannons are the best things to have in KAG at the moment, the fact that you can move from spawn to mid map is crazy. It justs takes out a reason for building tunnels and instead just making siege and have builders use the siege while you have knights flying in threw the air with the tramp cannons destroying your base. To be honest, tramps shouldn't be stackable, only way to fix this problem.
     
    Magmus likes this.
  3. TheDirtySwine

    TheDirtySwine Bison Rider Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    818
    Builder is such a difficult class to get used to. I've played almost completely builder since joining Apex competitively and I'm still not anything like the other god tier builders. As far as the class itself goes, there's a shit ton of stupid quality of life things that should be fixed or removed. I hate having to remove a stupid ass log when I'm trying to build something, I hate when I switch to a door and it places a stone block instead, I hate not being able to switch between blocks instantly, I hate when it doesn't place blocks fast enough, I hate when I place a door and an enemy still teleports through... The list goes on and on. It's easily one of the most effective classes but you're almost useless unless you have good team. Knights really determine who wins a game. Builders are just there to help them out. I think tramp cannons are pretty stupid tbh. It's always a guaranteed way to get to mid from spawn. Tunnels are one thing because they can be destroyed, but a tramp cannon in the back of spawn?
     
  4. RampageX

    RampageX Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    195
    You can even use a chicken with a tramp cannon to pretty much go from blue spawn to red spawn and vice versa.
     
    swiggityswooty and AJFaas like this.
  5. heX_

    heX_ Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    207
    Yep, its true. Tramp cannons are OP, which works out imo if you have a decent builder in each team, but a team without a decent builder is basically fucked unless they can rush the enemy flag quick. I actually think one of the main things OP about builders is that they can easily build near the enemy base. You shouldn't be able to build (except ladders and shops) within x distance of an enemy flag and y distance from the enemy tent imo. Right now if a rat has reached your base (which isn't very difficult, he can just entomb himself somewhere and dig from there) you're pretty much fucked: he digs through your defenses and places doors instead. Without a counter-rat builder you stand no chance.
     
    Magmus, AJFaas and Vamist like this.
  6. Ranmage

    Ranmage Builder Stabber

    Messages:
    62
    Maybe we should just erase builders?
    That would be really good.
    TDM like no tomorrow.
     
    Sytoplasma, DatNobby and PUNK123 like this.
  7. _Cuffs_

    _Cuffs_ Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    102
    Every form of offense a builder employs is counterable if they are not supported by good knights. It only comes down to who has the better builder when both teams have about equal knight power. If builders were nerf'd, a lot of end game would be lost and the game would stalemate more often. I don't think anyone would enjoy that.
     
    Sir_Walter and PUNK123 like this.
  8. AJFaas

    AJFaas Base Burner
    1. supr sekrit cln [skrt]

    Messages:
    164
    I think youre on to something here. That might be a good solution.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 24, 2015, Original Post Date: Sep 24, 2015 ---
    I actually like stalemates more than matches that end within 2 minutes. Unless ofcourse its a water map stalemate... But we all know what the cause of the stalemate there is, am i right?!(water!)
     
    Sytoplasma likes this.
  9. _Cuffs_

    _Cuffs_ Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    102
    Just because a match lasts a long time doesn't mean the match stalemated. A stalemate is a never-ending game that neither team can get an edge over the other and often end up being well, stale. A balanced match on the other hand can last a very long time but is laced with excitement and action. I think it's important to make a distinction between the two.
     
    Sytoplasma and Obione5256 like this.
  10. Horse_That_Goes_Ni

    Horse_That_Goes_Ni Your favorite Persian Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    233
    just remove everything and we can just play as chickens walking around
     
    Sytoplasma, Magmus, golemn and 4 others like this.
  11. AJFaas

    AJFaas Base Burner
    1. supr sekrit cln [skrt]

    Messages:
    164
    I might be one of the few that doesnt often find a match stalemated. I barely vote for map skips ever. And when I do find a map stalemated it often comes down to a watermap or a map with a pit; basically a map where the defenders can defend too well.
    On the other hand; truly exciting matches, in my experience, only happen when both teams are filled with strong players, which barely ever happens. Most matches I experience are ''passable''. Not terribly fun but not awful either.
     
    Sytoplasma, DatNobby and Magmus like this.
  12. BarsukEughen555

    BarsukEughen555 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    434
    The shits hits same wall again.
    Fuck CTF with builders, add TDM with builders, new maps/delete old maps, gib gud players/kick dickheads from ALL servers and so on.
    Basically, everything depends on skill. Just... all. 3 dumb knights sometimes cant get a builder in open field and try dying and a finely experinced knight with a bomb or 2 can easily go through not really heavy defences, destroy workshops, kill builders and so on. @king-george The KAG is about fighting, not attacking/defending, its complicated into same thing - while efending you make counter attacks and while you attack you have to protect the place you get out (tunnel/ place where u land from tramp cannon). The stalemate for me is 'bout players are too bad to keep fight intensive. I seen a map, ruined into shits, we do not head any dirt, instead we had bedrock to walk at, and all trees were destroyed, but this was so intense server was full for over the hour - 24/24 XD
     
  13. 8x

    8x Elimination Et Choix Traduisant la Realité Forum Moderator Tester Official Server Admin
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    1,314
    This. Some maps could be a few pixels less high, not only because of tramp cannons but also catapults and bomb bolt ballistas from 1 base attacking the other. Stalemates are not always bad.

    As a former regular builder I take no offence in the op, but it could also be more like "At some moments archers and knights can't make the game advance so please change to builder and help your team rather than camping, getting futile kills or spawn raping the enemy"
     
  14. Trumbles

    Trumbles Bison Rider

    Messages:
    454
    TBH, this is too meta for simple balance tweaks.

    All factors have to be looked into. A builder carries a lot of weight, and with it, the power to literally move a mountain and win a game no matter the odds. This is a powerful tool that makes the game unique and should never change, however any mechanic can be honed with proper insight. Let's take a look into the systems of the builder:

    The Builder can:

    Construct (moderately infinitely): Resources are almost TOO abundant on many maps. Stone especially.

    Destroy (Infinite) No resource for this task. You can do it until someone kills you, only thing that can stop you is bedrock, and nobody uses it in maps as much as they should.

    A real map should have bedrock blocking key areas, limited and strategic resource placement, and proper gameflow design. This is map designer 101, and as a game, KAG lacks it entirely, it is the only TRUE flaw outside of bugs and simple mechanic flaws.

    What we need is not to nerf builder, but literally to design good maps.

    Flat/fun maps are fun, but not really good for balanced gameplay (edited because holy shit that was rude lol)

    Set a resource count. X stone for X side of the map with X distance from spawn. Balance it to both sides.

    Set a terrain diagram. X team has X advantage because of X natural structure, opposite team has X amount of natural structures which can counter it with simple play.

    Map has X bedrock tiles in X control based areas of the map. IF a map lacks strategic points, it is not a map.


    This is all deeper than "this mechanic is OP", there are some deeper design issues that can be solved with nothing but good mapmaking.

    Edits: Must have been in a bad mood when I posted this, rude AF haha.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
  15. Withror

    Withror Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    140
    Sooo... Do you want them nerfed? Or buffed? And what's up with the tags lol
     
  16. AJFaas

    AJFaas Base Burner
    1. supr sekrit cln [skrt]

    Messages:
    164
    Maybe restricted or adjusted. Thats what im trying to figure out. But there are some good suggestions on this topic already. I just wanted to bring up that it doesnt feel right atm.

    Its like you put hidden messages in your posts. Multiple ways to perceive them. Atleast thats what I tell myself.
     
  17. EhRa

    EhRa Ooooooof Staff Alumni Donator
    1. KRPG

    Messages:
    810
    No.

    If your getting completely reked by builders, learn to battle them. Time your bombs, team up with people or get your archers to target the builders. If your worried about tunnel rats, get your own builder to tunnel. Dig from two sides into him.

    In most cases a single knight can wreck your base. Bomb jump in, buy a keg, gg wp. If your worried about rushing builders, target them, use your bombs, arrows, slashes. Just keep them on there toes. Builders DO NOT need to be nerfed, if you find them OP, then quite simply get better. An Very good builder is like a very good knight, knights can do shit tonnes of damage, archers can and builder can. The classes right now are balanced.
     
    PUNK123 likes this.
  18. Trumbles

    Trumbles Bison Rider

    Messages:
    454
    There are balance systems that can fix builders indirectly, namely strategic maps (thanks skinney for ingame editor i can fix kag now), and a water bomb rework. (huuuuge radius, no stun, only slow, weighted for builders).

    Think about it, how much shit does a knight or archer carry? a decent bit for sure.

    Builder? mountains of materials. If he gets slowed it should hurt twice as hard lol. Can even knock 20~50% of your materials away on hit.

    Cannot regrab dropped mats for ~50% of the slow.
     
  19. swiggityswooty

    swiggityswooty Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    58
    i agree with @Trumbles here... builders carry so much weight because almost all maps are literally DESIGNED for tunneling (what do you think those underground caves are for?). So many official maps (especially that tiny fucking map with the built in tunnel, fml) are designed so that the most effective way to win is tunneling... tunneling, the mode of play which eliminates almost all skill from knight combat, makes archers useless, and makes builders overpowered. Basically this thread resolves to what so many others do: we need better maps.
     
    Dargona1018 and Magmus like this.
  20. TheDirtySwine

    TheDirtySwine Bison Rider Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    818
    Haha if you think tunneling is bad, wait til you see me get a base going on top of your spawn. Keg spam galore!
     
    Magmus and swiggityswooty like this.