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Builders are too important

Discussion in 'Classes & Mechanics' started by AJFaas, Sep 24, 2015.

  1. swiggityswooty

    swiggityswooty Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    58
    i dont mind this style of play because it actually requires strategy and a good builder, and can be combated. tunneling is just stupid
     
  2. Lawrence_Shagsworth

    Lawrence_Shagsworth Joke Slayer Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    239
    Deleted off-topic posts.
     
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  3. Trumbles

    Trumbles Bison Rider

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    454
    Thanks Lawrence.

    So my idea for map design. Count how much stone and other mats each team should have on their map side,

    Make resources around the mid that can be fought over, make natural structures and hills, etc, that are strategic to control of these resources.

    Make small bedrock barriers in certain points to discourage tunneling intuitively.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
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  4. swiggityswooty

    swiggityswooty Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    58
    ftfy
     
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  5. AJFaas

    AJFaas Base Burner
    1. supr sekrit cln [skrt]

    Messages:
    164
    Blaming the maps wont do much good I think. I dont know if there is a competent map builder who can make maps to the optimal. If there is however, he would also need to instruct all other ''would be map builders'' and, i dont know, that just seems hard to realise to me. Also on a suggestions note:
    What if the materials you get from tents in build time wouldnt spawn on builders. but be spawned in some kind of storage the active builders can take it from. This would mean that people who dont build and jump around as a knight or archer, or just dont take the materials would still have their ''share'' spawned in the storage(tent?). Where everyone(in moderation) can take it from. This would give a team with bad players a fair chance with a better starter base.
     
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  6. DatNobby

    DatNobby Bison Rider

    Messages:
    157
    if you have a good builder on the enemy team and none on your team you are absolutely fucked.
    no amount of simply "getting better" will change that.
    their base will be better. they can push better. tunnel better. if their team has any sense and manages to support them, it's a guaranteed 100% ez gg. no fucking chance for you.
    you want to focus on the builder the entire game? firstly, you will never ever gain ground - all you do is kill the builder, while whatever they build will likely stand for much longer. you have the rest of the team to deal with, and any knight or archer knows to try and kill you - they will shut you the fuck down while that builder crawls across the map, setting up towers, tunnels, you name it with comparative ease.
    the moment a builder reaches your base and entombs is virtually the end, unless you're willing to destroy half the fucking base getting rid of them.
    builders are what decides which team wins 80% of the time and that's rather shitty
     
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  7. EhRa

    EhRa Ooooooof Staff Alumni Donator
    1. KRPG

    Messages:
    810
    Step 1: try to build a big base, I just played a match where 3 friends (including me), created a masssive flag base really easily.
    Step 2: Don't let the builder get to your base, use bombs, arrows anything. Get your builder to set up platforms to protects you against the archers/knights.
    Step 3: Have a good builder on your team, if there's none do it yourself.
     
  8. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,277
    wtf is this garbage even? If you dont have a useful builder then yes you might not gain ground in a ctf game. If you dont have any good knights then yes you might lose every rush in a ctf game. If you dont have any good archers then your push most likely wont have any support. It's how the fucking game works. The difference is knights are usually supposed to be 80% of the total team and the rest builders and archers. The problem arises when there arent any capable builders (i mean capable as in having more than 1 brain cell) and your push is stagnated behind what the enemy builder uses to block off your team. Even then, you can just bomb jump over every single thing(and if you are a knight you should continuously gain more gains to continuously bomb jump over whatever the builder makes)
     
    EhRa likes this.
  9. DatNobby

    DatNobby Bison Rider

    Messages:
    157
    "3 friends"
    so people you know and can work with
    aka not pub games?
    "don't let the builder into your base"
    with the other team pushing and that being the goal of the builder 3/4ths of the match? yeah, no. it will happen.
    "if there's none do it yourself."
    that doesn't solve the problem that you NEED a builder to win. i shouldn't be forced to play a class just so i can win a match of kag for fuck's sake
     
  10. Trumbles

    Trumbles Bison Rider

    Messages:
    454
    I self-study game design, map building isn't very hard. It's all just numbers. Can still make a fun map within some strict metrics.

    Having too much stone/gold or easy tunneling can ruin a game in my experience. Nobody enjoys when a game ends via tunneling, and nobody enjoys when half of their team is too busy underground to actually fight/push forward.

    Lel I apologize if my earlier posts were aggressive, I've been kinda back and forth with my moods lately.
     
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  11. swiggityswooty

    swiggityswooty Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    58
    at the moment this is simply impractical unless you have SEVERAL good knights and the other team has very few to counter them, or a couple very good knights. it's impractical because as a knight, unless you're playing a 3v3 (and even then sometimes...) it's ridiculous to "focus" a builder when you have ALL of the opposing team's knights and archers to worry about, or in almost all cases at least 1/3 of them, if you're in a conflicted area (such as a front tower, the middle of the map, or bomb jumping into their tower). This means that unless enough very competent and at least somewhat cohesive (stacked teams can get rekt by pub teams because they don't work together, i've seen it happen) with several combat players and can just brute force the other team, you'll lose if someone like lefty or makmoud is on the other team with knights who know how to jab. while it makes sense for a team to need a good builder, it doesn't make sense (at least to highly biased me) to have 2 good knights < 1 good builder. that's not balance lol
     
  12. EhRa

    EhRa Ooooooof Staff Alumni Donator
    1. KRPG

    Messages:
    810
    1 bomb = atleast 1 builder, have a base with platforms, buy a bomb, throw at builder gg wp.

    As Punk said, you also need good knights and good archers to win a match. The only reason the op is whining about builders being too important is that they can break blocks, thats what builders do, learn to live with it. And as punk said,
    if you have no builders or bad bulders, your obviously doing something wrong. Its not because the other team is better, its because your team is shit. It's like having no knights.
     
  13. DatNobby

    DatNobby Bison Rider

    Messages:
    157
    the difference is that with shitty knights they still serve a purpose, and can still get the fucking job done
    anyone can rush at the enemy jabspamming with their teammates and manage to be somewhat effective
    trash archers can just shoot and from a tower in the general direction of the enemy and hit
    a shitty builder has no fucking idea what to do and will be absolutely destroyed by a good one 10 times out of 10
    they'll build shitty things
    have no idea how to rush properly
    will be slow when trying to ladder up if they even do
    builder is important to the point where if yours is bad you lose. if you have bad knights, or bad archers, but a good builder you can still manage to pull through
     
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  14. Dargona1018

    Dargona1018 Ballista Bolt Thrower

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    569
    You're acting as if everyone and their dog are good builders.
    There are some decent builders, but the GOOD builders are few and far between, spread thin across servers, then putting usually one good builder on a team against decent ones.
    You saying "If you have bad builders, you're obviously doing something wrong" is incredibly ignorant, because pub matches are rampant with bad builders from when last I played, and a lot of the good builders learned Knight, Archer, pretty much the rest of the game, and wanted something fresh, going onto Builder, when most people stuck with one class (usually not builder, as it's a daunting task).
     
  15. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

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    1,277
    A class is not op just because no one wants to learn how to play it. I can't fucking believe you're trying to argue that lol.
     
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  16. Dargona1018

    Dargona1018 Ballista Bolt Thrower

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    569
    Not trying to argue that. Read it again.
     
  17. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

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    Using the entire context of the past 5-6 posts(not specifically you though i did mis-interpret :/)
    is greiver not worth 2 knights? Or 2 good builders for that matter. It is all about how you look at it.
     
  18. Gofio

    Gofio Gunwobbler x3

    Messages:
    1,090
    Builder is not OP -_-
    One well-placed keg or fire arrow destroys about a 1000 stone or wood.
    Three bomb arrows can take out 5 double-doors worth 500 stone total, and get the archer a captured flag.
    One bomb is strong enough to blow a hole in a wall, another bomb to destroy the workshops behind that wall.
    If you don't have good builders, just change classes and help the bad builders build; three bad builders can out-build a good builder, even if it doesn't work as well.
    If the enemy team has too many good builders, buy a keg, go knight, and have someone launch you with a catapult. Even if the tower survives it's gonna have a huge hole in it.
    If the enemy fighters are too good, go builder and tunnel under them. Place some traps, put a tunnel above those traps, and you've got all you need to set up a good surprise attack.
    Builders aren't too powerful, most knights and archers simply aren't thinking ahead. Going to the battlefield without a bomb or with only arrows means you're just going to stall the enemy.
    Take a bomb with you, or some fire arrows, and you can destroy or scale their defenses, and maybe even take out a ballista, some workshops, or their main builder.
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 5, 2015, Original Post Date: Oct 5, 2015 ---
    An equally good knight or archer can ruin a good builder's work.
     
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  19. _Cuffs_

    _Cuffs_ Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester

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    102
    Just build a tramp cannon. Everything can be countered with a tramp cannon.
     
  20. RampageX

    RampageX Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester

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    This is true, but tunneling can kinda counter it or bomb jumping over to the base and destroying the tramps.
     
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