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Changes for Builders/Bridges

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Wyeth, Nov 16, 2011.

?

What do you think of these changes?

Poll closed Nov 23, 2011.
  1. I like them

    61.5%
  2. I dislike them

    26.2%
  3. I am indifferent

    12.3%
  1. Wyeth

    Wyeth KAG Guard Donator Tester

    Messages:
    375
    Taken from the blog:


     
  2. trelawney

    trelawney KAG Guard Tester

    Messages:
    771
    Indifferent as to building while standing - although I'm not sure how this will pan out; I like risking a run to the front to help out me knights.
    Radius compensation and tighter construction block rules make sense. Can't wait for a test build.
     
    Birdman159 and Noburu like this.
  3. Jackard

    Jackard Base Burner

    Messages:
    852
    approve of most everything

    enemies mindlessly spamming ladders and bridges you just spent far too much time clearing can be extremely frustrating

    good riddance to jump-building. useful, but it encourages some pretty stupid building habits (like blocking your team from the spawn)

    dunno about double the build radius. could be troublesome. i think the current radius is fine
     
    Noburu, Mornaval and Wyeth like this.
  4. FinDude

    FinDude KAG Guard Tester

    Messages:
    123
    I think the build radius is a bit silly as is.
    If it does get increased, enemies should most definitely carry a large no-build-radius with them.

    Perhaps if ladders acted as cheap scaffolding, but did not support / were not supported by castle blocks at all? Combined with substantially increasing trap bridge cost it should work.

    The reason this is a problem in the first place is that vertical defense is the only useful defense.
     
    Fellere825 and Contrary like this.
  5. Zegovia

    Zegovia Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    497
    It would change the way we build things. Perhaps for the better.
     
  6. HardPenguin

    HardPenguin Horde Gibber

    Messages:
    310
    First time I was thinking just like 'awesome idea, absolute must-implement'. But now I'm a bit more sceptical. I still like the idea but first we just need to test it and later decide whether improve it or remove it.
     
  7. Jackard

    Jackard Base Burner

    Messages:
    852
    implement this without increasing build radius please okay thanks
     
    mwisniewski and Mornaval like this.
  8. Neat

    Neat King of the Dead Donator Tester

    Messages:
    1,958
    Increasing build radius means tunneling builders are even more OP, even if they have to stand still.

    The rest sounds test worthy.
     
    SirZergling, Noburu and Mornaval like this.
  9. Miczu

    Miczu Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    165
    I would make wooden doors cheaper (30 wood) as they are the only weak point of castle from knight point of view, and make bridges more expensive (15 wood) as it is so damn good.

    Guess with use less wood and is knight proof... (and is faster to move through as doors are damn slow)...
    [​IMG]
     
    FuzzyBlueBaron, Foxodi and Noburu like this.
  10. ilaks

    ilaks Bison Rider Donator

    Messages:
    253
    Are you kidding me right now?
    The only reason this situations occur is beacuse you turned bridges into two-way platforms a.k.a team-only ladders.
    You should listen to the suggestions to either leave the bridges as they were or, I quote:
    And on top of that, you want to nerf the hell out of the builder itself even though you gave them an extra heart to make them more offensive (which was good, beacuse they are needed to move forward!) Wow, im speechless.
     
  11. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    Offensive builder > Movement nerf > Defensive builder

    I would approve making the drawbridges destructable by builders even when they're open.
    That would solve all the problems Geti was talking about.
     
    Foxodi likes this.
  12. NigerV2

    NigerV2 Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    100
    two-way drawbridge is fail idea=\
     
  13. AHrEJl

    AHrEJl Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    646
    need test it first, then say that it is fail idea
     
  14. Mornaval

    Mornaval Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    41
    I'm not often a builder so I don't know how important this is to changing the pace of a match. Sounds hilarious though.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Pilou

    Pilou Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    54
    If they want to spice up the class builder and make their task more difficult, rather than builders could only build while standing still, they should add a limit building blocks horizontally without support !
     
  16. Strathos

    Strathos KAG Guard Tester

    Messages:
    198
    (couldn't post it on the dev page)
    I'd like (a lot) the background dirt not giving more support to user blocks, but this would mean that someone tunneling right under a structure would collapse said structure.

    The inability to build while on the air (jumping) is a necessary nerf, but have them not press any buttons? Wouldn't it be better to make the builder come to a complete stop every time a block is placed? It don't see much difference between the two, except for the latter being more convenient.

    I'm thinking an enhanced+ building ratio could enable some sort of block spamming griefing on the building phase.
     
  17. RebeccaBlack

    RebeccaBlack Shipwright

    Messages:
    2
    I second the idea of being able to destroy opened drawbridges. Sounds very important. How silly is that to have to get at the perfect distance of the drawbridge in order to destroy it ? And wait for all your friends to stop running through it ?

    I'm not sure about the ideas presented here. Building while standing still makes sense from a realism point of view.

    Some more ideas :
    - Stop losing gold when destroying enemy buildings ; maybe even gain some. This way, enemy builder spammers are feeding you and bringing you valuable ressources.
    - Keep the ability of crossing bridges from top to bottom, but change it significantly this way : when you are on top of you own team bridge, pressing down actually opens it ! (or maybe pressing E ?) This might seem strange at first but might be a very good idea ; first it's more realistic (how would you cross solid wood ?) ; second it nerfs the drawbridge, which is, as said above, a perfect team-only ladder ; third it makes things more messy because you will make you team mates fall (and I like messy things :D )
     
  18. Jackard

    Jackard Base Burner

    Messages:
    852
    yes lets give players more ways to accidentally/intentionally screw over their teammates in the dubious name of "realism"

    apparently you would need to wall off and protect some magical dirt/bedrock to keep your structures afloat
     
  19. TerryDactyl

    TerryDactyl KAG Guard Tester

    Messages:
    232
    Is there a test-build up on these ideas? It could be a pretty major nerf for the builder, where jump-building ladders is nearly essential to an assault. It might be more appropriate to nerf the bridge itself. There are some problems with the proposed castle-support-nerf.

    [rambler]
    When faced with a fortification, you have to either go under it, over it, or through it. Knights can't go through castles very easily anymore, but a good team can climb a squat wall. Soil permitting, providing the competition isn't too fierce, they also do a good job at digging around it. Once they get through, knights are very dangerous. A lone archer can climb any wall build without an overhang or a drop-block trap, but their effectiveness at such close range has been severely nerfed with the warmup to shoot. They can not pass through enemy doors (idea: lockpicks for archers & allow that knife to injure builders). Builders make these things and they take them apart with relative ease, but are fragile in combat.

    Could ladders be made into a buildable, haulable object? Stick a few together and carry them to the front? Store a few in a back-room somewhere? Require them to be supported from below? Allow them to be turned on their side and set a maximum weight tolerance (too complex a mechanic?), preventing a team of knights from passing over without collapsing the structure.

    Bridges were once simpler to remove. We saw builders tearing them up and replacing them with their own, back then.

    Tree-scarcity is a factor.

    Simple solution: Bridges require a small amount of stone to build their mechanisms.

    Another solution: require coin to be used in their construction.
    [/rambler]
     
  20. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    Just changed point number one to reflect all the raised eyebrows. Basically charge to build, once it's fully charged it'll build the block on the first applicable tile.

    Neat: The charge should prevent builders being fuckers in tunnels.
    Terry: We've got physical ladders as a planned thing and will fix half the fucked up issues with them, yes.
    ilaks: As said on the blog, ffs be less negative. I'm not going to respond to you about KAG's mechanics until you start being less of a dick.

    Strathos: The "stop every time you place a block" is what currently happens if you're on the ground. It sucks and just feels clunky. I think charging to build would be a better solution than both of them.

    Re: Undermining -> collapse - I like this! It means you can chop off the connection points for a bridge and it'll drop. It means you can cut under a wall to bring it down so that rear support will be even more important. That means knights can drop bridges off the side of mountains cheerfully.

    Re: oh man I hate these two way bridges - too bad. They give a lot more than they take.

    Re: Breaking open bridges - I think this is kinda reasonable as long as it jams the drawbridge open. We can try it, it is frustrating having to remove them from a distance.
    Re: Down opens the drawbridge: We had this at one point. It was a trolls best friend. The current system isn't you "falling through solid wood" - think of it in 3D, you just drop over the side of the slender bridge.

    Findude: Trust me man if I had my way there'd be a shitload more fall damage and people would be tiptoeing around cliffs rather than jumping out of 20 metre high buildings with a smile on their face.

    Re: Builders can't be offensive if they can't move! - I disagree, they'll just need to actually be protected rather than being the lone guy fucking up everyone else's plans and trollfacing. You don't build a frontline tower while running around holding jump, you build it behind a few team knights while praying you get it built in time. The only reason to be building something while running is that you're actively trying to spam.

    Sorry for being brief I'm getting floored with responses here.