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Clan wars on Beta - Competitive aspect

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by SpideY, Nov 14, 2013.

  1. JoshTG

    JoshTG Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    236
    Why not just add tickets AND a timer, no stale mates, deaths matter. Bang bang.
     
  2. Rocinante

    Rocinante Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    133
    I would definitely encourage server admins in the US or US Northeast to bring back tickets. Just try it out.
     
  3. 8x

    8x Elimination Et Choix Traduisant la Realité Forum Moderator Tester Official Server Admin
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    1,318
    This is one of the few opinions on Beta CTF i can agree with, but that's about my feelings towards the game.

    5x5 as minimun; at classic gathers 1 good archer was enough to molest but that's not enough at beta.I would say 'there has to be always at least 1 builder and 1 archer' for 5/7 players per team players. I'm looking forward to reading more about this.

    What is more, before taking this to a further point there are other things regarding the general gameplay to consider. Personally, I still find the current builder pretty awkward for playing seriously, the F menu is not as accurate and fast, and laying and hitting blocks isn't so solid.
     
  4. Taiga

    Taiga Based God Donator

    Messages:
    89
    From what I've seen, the only reason tickets aren't being implemented in the servers is because of the Admin's fear of campers. Which is very understandable but at the same time blocking some of the experience you could be getting out of the game. As @Contrary and @Vidar mentioned: "What's KAG without a last stand" Well i'd have to be on their side for that one. The amount of fun we all had during the Alpha with 0-0 tickets on both sides made the game even more spectacular.What i'm trying to get to here is simply: "Give it a try"
     
    16th, Rocinante and master4523 like this.
  5. Vidar

    Vidar KAG Guard Donator Tester

    Messages:
    143
    I wholeheartedly agree with EJ's colorful assessment that bomb spamming and camping were a problem in classic. I think this was in large part due to the gradual degeneration of knight combat in Alpha, since sword fighting became unreliable and inconsistent, but bombs were almost always a reliable way to kill an opponent through all the bugs and the lag. Bomb spamming might not be such a huge problem now, since swords are so effective for knights, since both offensive classes are so mobile, and since bombs are not near as versatile as they were in classic. If bombs became a problem for some reason, I would be inclined to suggest nerfing them if need be. In any case, you really can't be Kareem Abdul Jabbar with them now, at least compared to Alpha, and they aren't Alpha guided missiles anymore.

    I believe JoshTG is right. If we include a mode to play with tickets, we would need to add a timer.

    I always envisioned Competitive Kag going like this.

    - life counter (60, 100, 200, whatever)
    - 15, 30, or 45 minute timer
    - midfield advantage has to mean something to encourage advancement (Resources, Gold being the most vital). Meaning if you camp in your home base and can't get to mid, your going to get rained on hard.
    - By the end of the counter if no one has captured the enemy flag the team with the most lives wins.
    - If its tied, whether its 10 v 10 or 1 v 1, it goes into sudden death mode on a map design for combat only. (Which is probably more of a fantasy on my part then an actual possible reality.) If someone has an easier or better suggestion for a tie breaker please share.

    In the end, a mode with a life counter and a timer would probably make this much more enjoyable for those people who would like to see this have a competitive scene again.

    Feel free to criticize or critique me, these are just my thoughts and I welcome suggestions and respectful arguments.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
    Kalikst, MadDog, Maverick and 3 others like this.
  6. if theres limited lives your goal is always to camp and make your opponent come at you and die, end of the story
     
    norill likes this.
  7. 8x

    8x Elimination Et Choix Traduisant la Realité Forum Moderator Tester Official Server Admin
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    1,318
    Defense is also part of the game, and repealing attacks atm is very important. It could be totally legit for a team to play defensive, but that does not fit in CTF right now, you have to capture the flags too.

    About the sudden death idea, what about all the doors and trapblocks change to neutral, prizes are reduced, and you can't build any block except for ladders.
     
  8. Vidar

    Vidar KAG Guard Donator Tester

    Messages:
    143
    So you don't feel that any feature could be implemented, including encouraging midfield advantage, that would encourage capturing the flag?

    Of the countless games I've played Alpha CTF, I don't believe this was the case. Initially everyone pushes hard for it. Towards the tail end of the life counter people started considering if we should keep expending bodies and throwing ourselves on the enemies swords for midfield advantage or pull back and dig in for the barrage, or unfortunetly at the end of Alpha, the bombspam assualt. The problem was camping was too powerful. Any issues beta hasnt already dealt with can be fixed with game play tweaks or features.

    The compounding factors in most long term camping situations were bad map design, structures being incredibly hard to penetrate and scale without a cata, and bombspamming.

    I feel that the structures issue has been remedied. It's like building sandcastles now. So many offensive weapons now, it's impossible to dig in like a tick. Bombspamming is possibly remedied by the change in bomb power and mechanics, but that would have to be tested and tweaked if necessary.

    Then there's the most important factor, Bad map design. Subjective, but I seem to remember the competitive leagues narrowing down what is good and what is bad when it comes to a good map in the end. I remember playing a CTF league match against you with a giant ditch in the middle and two tall peaks on both ends. All both teams did was camp the entire 15 minutes, for the most part. Example of a bad map directly promoting camping.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
  9. Brilly

    Brilly Haxor

    Messages:
    222
    lelelel, only cowards camp, no matter if you are playing classic or beta, but vid boy, sword fighting in classic is neither unreliable or inconsistent.

    You just have to get a feel for the slashes between different pings, and learn the delays.
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 16, 2013, Original Post Date: Nov 16, 2013 ---
    Beta CTF is disgusting at the moment, because it is nearly impossible to rush and win instantly if your team doesn't cooperate.

    You score 1 flag by yourself, and of course the other team entombs the other flag while you capture the first one.

    Probably gonna have to wait 2 months for these new steam players to get good at anything
     
  10. Vidar

    Vidar KAG Guard Donator Tester

    Messages:
    143
    Alright, either way I'm just using it as an example of a possible reason. And either way, Alpha is abandoned and over for good, so I'm trying to use some of the things we learned from Alpha to make Beta better. To see if some things can be implemented so that the future of KAG might have a bright competitive future.
     
  11. Verrazano

    Verrazano Flat Chested Haggy Old Souless Witchy Witch Witch THD Team Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. Practitioners of War Extreme Revolution - POWER

    Messages:
    477
    I've noticed the convo has been quite leaning towards the concepts. Yet we all know the ups and downs of tickets in classics. You have the epic last stands, but yet those last stands comprise of camping. The upside being that death matters. I thought about this a little while ago as I do miss the ticketed gametypes. I wanted to find a way that could remedy the issues that it had with camping. If the goal is to reward people fighting and being aggressive, but to still have an end in sight here is the gamemode I roughly devised.
    • 1 Flag CTF
    • CTF Shops
    • ~30-40 Tickets per a player
    • 25-30 minute timer
    • Hall like structure in the center
    For the most part the components of this gamemode just sound like classic CTF and that's essentially what they are. But I wanted to add some incentive for attacking the middle hall, retaking it and continuing your attack. That's where the overly large amount of tickets come in combined with modding how tickets are removed. Instead of just thinking of the tickets conventionally 1 ticket equals 1 spawn. You think of tickets as varying value to get soldier. Depending where a player dies, and what their team controls that next spawn will cost more. I don't think it will ever get above a 3 tickets to 1 spawn ratio. But here is the outline for how the tickets work.
    • Neither team owns the center base 1 ticket = 1 spawn
    • Your team doesn't own the center base 2 tickets = 1 spawn
    • Your team owns the base and dies outside the radius of the base 1 ticket = 1 spawn
    • Your team owns the base and dies inside the radius of the base 3 tickets = 1 spawn
    The goal of this is to encourage Continued attacking. The people holding the base are encourage to push forward and continue attacking, because if they let the enemy get to close to the center base that they control they lose a lot of tickets. The defending team is encourage to regain control of the center so that they wont lose tickets as fast. This is just a simple idea of what would happen as it is hypothetical, I think this would need more analysis and value changing to work. But I don think it has potential. Also just another note about this gamemode, I think it would pretty much require really well made maps that make holding the center base not so easy, i.e the base on a hill would probably be a bad choice.
     
    Hallic, lavalord, Digger101 and 6 others like this.
  12. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    I like the last stands, but I don't like tickets. They simply promote camping.

    Having a 30-minute timer, AFTER which each team gets around 50 tickets would be the superb option. You get 30 minutes of suicidal attempts to grab the enemy flag, but if you haven't reached that goal yet after 30 minutes.. you'll get tickets and the round will be bound to end shortly. This would make it more entertaining for both players and potential viewers.

    The team with surviving players wins the game.
     
    Fate likes this.
  13. you get 30 minutes of minecrafting to make an ultimate camping castle of death and THEN you camp
     
  14. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    If the other team lets you, they probably suck.
     
  15. Brilly

    Brilly Haxor

    Messages:
    222
    How about every player has 1 minute to live unless they continuously kill the other team's players.

    Once you get a kill, the 1 minute timer resets.

    I could live with that.
     
  16. We could set a timer with unlimited lives, but with another way to win than flag, with Kills/Score teams counter and target score.
     
  17. JoshTG

    JoshTG Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    236
    No offense but all these ideas are over complicated and lame, if there was a timer and tickets it would solve the camping problem.
     
    Superblackcat and 16th like this.
  18. arl had both lol

    but obviously your flawless idea is very best all bow to joshtg
     
    JoshTG likes this.
  19. JoshTG

    JoshTG Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    236
    Well beta plays completely different from alpha. So comparing it to arl doesn't mean anything.

    Not trying to be like that, but its like you people are trying to solve a problem thats not there. Besides there hasnt been any "competitive" standards for beta yet. We at least have to try things out before saying it would cause camping or stalemates.
     
    Superblackcat, Rubixxcube and 16th like this.
  20. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

    Messages:
    2,196
    MFW even Brilly is posting better than Ej. Whether or not you are correct this discussion deserves more than sarcasm.

    Personally I'm really against timers. Having a game dragged out is bad but it's better than "oops time up" which is as likely to interrupt a fun game as a stale one.