Class Bawww/Argument thread

This was obviously a set up :P

 

You da man Contrary. As long as you have the skill you can be offensive with all the classes. The misconception people have about archers annoys me the most. I play offensive as archer all the time and have lately been practicing killing knights in close quarters.

 

That clip is part of a longer gameplay I've been meaning to commentate over and upload (but I'm too lazy). I had a consistently high KD throughout. The worker actually has a number of advantages over knights in melee combat and while it is generally more situational it is a valid combatant and has times where it really shines. For example in that clip I don't think a knight would have worked as well.

 

That be great if you upload. I love to see how people go about pushing the limits of a certain class

 

Well the major advantage is the sheer speed of the hammer, even if your not killing people you'll be causing havoc and giving your knights an advantage by flying around and shaving off half hearts all over the place. You just have to pick your battles well, it's as simple as that, I'm not even very good at it and have had lives where I've taken down around 10 people as builder .

 

Don't be ridiculous yourself, 1 knight can take out 2 archers with 1 bomb.
You essentially are proving what I said initially - Knights compete on every level with the other 2 classes.
Therefore they are the OP class. You want to destroy blocks, kill easily in melee, kill easily in ranged? go Knight!
Neither of the other 2 classes can do that.
I don't think there should be a speed increase for any class.

Knight is not a risky class, it is the go to class for everyone.
Sure, Knights have some learning curve, so does every class in the game. You are going to find great and retarded knights/builders/archers.

- reduce the AOE on knights bombs; 6 blocks for insta-death is too big, try 3.​

- remove knight ability to destroy player placed blocks with slash​

- make shields only affect the direction it is facing, not 180 degrees​

- give builders and archers 1 heart basic attacks instead of 0.5 hearts​

 

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What's your source for the AOE?​

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What's wrong with knights destroying player placed blocks? they can't destroy anything that is not made of wood. This limits their destructive potential capabilities as on non premium servers not much is made of wood​

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If a knight is shielding up an archer can shoot him in the side, therefore shield does only affect the direction it is facing​

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also knights don't compete equally. They can't climb over a tower like a builder or an archer can​

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What about playing some Call of Duty?

 

AOE source is playing on servers against friends - testing it, standing still and seeing what kills.
Do you have other numbers?

My issue with Knights destroying player placed blocks with slash is that they are supposed to be a dps class, their bombs do enough destruction without allowing them to auto attack a wall to death, or a bridge, or the backwall. If knights continue to have the ability, so should archers, thus evening out that EVERYONE would be able to destroy blocks.

Just tested on BHTP, Action! and Official KAG CTF servers:
If I shoot a knight in the side, who is shielding facing up - the arrow gets blocked.
If I shoot a knight in the left side, and he is shielding right - he gets hit.
If I shoot a knight in the head from the top and he is shielding to the side - the arrow gets blocked.
If I shoot a knight who is gliding with his shield on the side as he comes at me - it gets blocked.
If I shoot a knight who is gliding with his shield from the bottom - he gets hit.
Knights are only vulnerable from the opposite side of the shield. The shield DOES NOT only affect the direction it is facing.

really... a knight cant climb like an archer / builder...
A knight has a 4 block slash/jump, the abilty to remove doors (usually used on walls) and bomb jump.... tell me again how they cant scale walls like archers / builders?

 

On timed maps, its not wasteful.
Btw, two builders can take on at least, five knights.
They just take on one knight at a time,
and purposely de-sync themselves, so that they don't have any openings for the knight to strike them.
FUNNY AS HELL. I SWEAR X3

 

To answer your first question, no I don't have other numbers, I was interested to know since I have been planning on testing them my self.



Archers having the ability to break walls would be ridiculous. You might as well give them daggers while your at it.

This morning I was playing on a sparsely populated server and got stuck in front of a tower. Why couldn't I just go over it? Because I was not a builder nor an archer, I was a knight. Knight ≠ Ninja

 

Knights can only destroy 2 kinds of block in 99% of servers; doors take a fucking ice age to slash through, and getting bridges has to be done with a very well timed and very accurate slash, which takes even longer then getting through a door does for even a pretty decent knight. If only builders could get through shit like that it'd encourage turtling even more, and retarded ground level doors would be promoted which is even fucking worse.

While I'm at it, builders have a quicker attack then a knights jab, so there's no need for that to be any better, and if an archers machinegun shot took a whole heart off then spaghetti monster help us all.

And since I've already started, what on earth is wrong with knights bombs? The only way you should worry about them as an archer is if your in a retarded position or are too stupid to work out how to get into a position where you won't get yourself killed if your out somewhere where one is obviously gonna fly at you at some point. Without bombs been that good at maiming archers too thick to stay alive where they should easily be doing, then you might as well save the hassle of fighting and just build a massive block tower at either end of the map, and whoever reaches sky level first wins.

 

4, not 2. Knights can destroy 4 player placed blocks on non-gold servers: Ladders, backwall, doors, and bridges.

Archers currently have the ability to destroy dirt and stone (probably gold ore too, i don't know never tested that). However, they need to melee it. This would be how destroying walls should be implemented - melee. If you are that desperate to get thru a wall as an archer that you melee, you should be able to break it.

Not saying this doesn't happen, but if a builder makes his wall so his teammates can make it across - then the enemy knight can make it across.

*must not mention failure to use you're properly*
I know where you are going with this, but let's look at it honestly - I started off by saying Knights are the class with the advantage. They can do everything. They have the only AOE in the game and it is ranged and it has a 6 block radius 3 heart gib. You honestly are going to say that this is completely balanced against the other 2 classes who cannot retaliate with that kind of firepower?
Wait, you say - you can pick it up too and throw it back. Sure, if the knight is drunk and throws it right after he lights it.
All I am saying is 6 blocks seems excessive for being able to instagib the other 2 classes in the game. If arrows hit everyone for 6 blocks people would be screaming bloody murder all over the place.

 

Pretty sure archers can only dig dirt...

 

In order to be useful at range, they have to invest 20 gold per bomb, and can only carry a limited amount. Rather than crippling the power of the knight, perhaps make bombs more expensive or so that they can carry 2.

There is more than one way to nerf a class without destroying how fun they are. You isolate the problematic element of gameplay which seems to be bombs from your statements.

Nerfing the shield would hurt knights too much, perhaps the availability of bombs could be addressed to see how that plays out rather than completely nerfing a fundamental skill a knight relies on.

Knights are definitely the most mobile on jagged and unclear terrain if you don't include archer tree climbing and builders being able to make ladders. The knights shielding and slash jump mobility helps keep the knight able to compete with the other classes in uneven and war scarred terrain which is where they will spend most of their time.

 

What the hell are you smoking that you think archers can destroy stone?!

I agree with potato here. Bombs should be a little more expensive. All the damage they can do, you should have to work harder to get them.

 

You are correct good sir.
I thought I was able to remove the naturally occurring stone but i was incorrect.

While true, bombs are 20 gold - when I am a builder I am constantly told by knights to buy them bombs (which I do). The gold isnt really a hardship, unless you are a team that only consists of knights.

I completely understand, that is why I gave 4 or 5 suggestions for how to balance, instead of just 1.
Bringing the 6 block aoe of death down a few blocks does not suddenly make a knight unfun. It would simply bring up the skill bar. As of right now, a knight can land a bomb on the top of a tower and unless the tower is wider than 6, everyone on top has to A) jump to their death or B) die from a bomb. (Assuming the knight even left enough time on the bomb for them to get a choice.) Even if someone chooses to jump, the AOE still could kill them before they clear the 6 blocks.

 

Indeed, and thats why I said its a better suggestion to simply limit the amount of bombs and not the power.

So make bombs 1.5-2.5 times more expensive and then make adjustments. 20 Gold a pop yeah is nothing, but 30-50 a pop is something to consider. This way bombs stay awesome and powerful, but there are less of them on the battlefield thereby producing the intended effect I.E. reducing bomb related frustration from non knight classes. I do agree bombs are problematic at the moment, and I feel its simply the sheer amount of bombs and their availability.

I personally hate power nerfs of any kind and much prefer simply making something more scarce. If you adjust the power you lose a lot of interactions, if you nerf the frequency you just see them less often.

Is this the start of a circular argument? :)

 

First off, I want to say that most of what metaspy is saying is trash, but I agree that a nerf to the power of bombs is better than a nerf to their availability. The damage that bombs deal is the only really problematic component of bombs right now (except for range maybe) and while nerfing the availability of bombs would help ease a lot of bomb spam scenarios bombs have a lot of other functions that are helpful to the flow of the game.

Namely, bombs are extremely vital on offense due to the fact that they're a quickly available, easily portable, easily deliverable, low resource instant tile destruction. The other forms of tile deletion, workers and catapults, take down towers slower, are much easier to thwart and/or take a lot of resources and will only come in late game.

Bombs are also useful for bomb jumps. They're only of the few purely offensive mechanics in the game and can potentially break a defense as well as being extremely hype.

Bombs also do not need to kill to be effective. Tossing one into the crowd and having everyone scramble around and be scattered by the blast is very powerful and turn the tides even if you didn't kill anyone. Bombs also stun for a very long time. I played on a high health server where archers didn't die in one blast and while the server was mostly wacky trash but I learned that using a bomb to blast an archer into your sword is the coolest thing ever and adds another dimension to skill for both the bomber and the dodger.

Even the act of lighting a bomb can be pivotal; as a prudent front line builder I automatically start walking backwards if I hear a bomb being lit (unless I'm dong something really important). It's a lot like archers where there's a lot of strength in their threat range and just knowing that you could be shot is enough for you to have to take special consideration and use time and resources putting up walls, covering workshops and not sitting in the open so much.

Reducing the availability of bombs also does nothing to reducing the whole "I had no way of knowing for sure but it turns out he had a bomb; I was within his screen so now I do for free" problem which may be fun for knights but is no fun for everyone also and I believe it provides much less fun than the fun deficit it creates.

Nerfing the availability of bombs would be really nerfing the fun to be had with bombs across all their different uses while simply nerfing the killing power of bombs would reduce the knight's fun with that one aspect while keeping the other's the same.