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Classes vs. Money and KD

Discussion in 'Balance' started by Nighthawk, Oct 14, 2013.

  1. Nighthawk

    Nighthawk gaurenteed shitter

    Messages:
    793
    [/rage start]

    Hey, it's me again, complaining about classes and such. Feel free to rage upon me as much as you like, but I need to get something off my chest.

    I think everyone is in denial about how incredibly flimsy Archers are atm. I'm not even gonna try to convince you guys that they're underpowered, or that Knights are overpowered, or anything like that, because I think that Archers are pretty well balanced... well, in their own way.

    There are some cold, hard, undeniable facts that need to be acknowledged, however:
    Money, and KD. If you play all three classes, it's pretty much impossible to not notice that when you play Archer, it's difficult to reach even 100+ coins, (unless you camp and take no risks, in which case it takes ages and is no fun) whereas when you play Knight, it's a rather simple matter to reach 300+ coins... even in one life. Same with KD. Play Archer, have awful KD ratio, (again, unless you camp all day) play Knight, your KD rises.

    I don't think it's just me, either. I've noticed a pattern, just by hitting Tab during matches: players who go Archer tend to have KDs worse than 1:1, while those who go Knight generally have at least a 1:1 KD (unless of course Areo or some other behemoth of a Knight is on the other team, in which case everyone up against him has an awful KD).

    The reason for low funds and low KD in Archers is the same: They simply aren't very good at killing enemies. I'm pretty sure you get more money for a kill than you do for a heart of damage, meaning Knights are already getting a heck of a lot more cash, but on top of that, the most damage an Archer can inflict at one time (with regular ol' arrows) is 3 hearts, and that's after they've charged for a full five seconds or whatever it is to pull of a triple shot. And even THEN, you're pretty likely to miss or have those shots blocked, because of the weird nature of aiming triple-shots.

    Knights can do 4 hearts of damage in seconds flat, possibly more if they're hitting a group of enemies. And they do this regularly. Archers? 3 hearts, if they're lucky.

    Don't get me wrong - I think Archer has enough fancy utilities to make them really good... at running away. Only problem is, that's counter-intuitive, considering the fact that Archers' effective range has been reduced in Beta, and their triple-shot really only works against Knights when firing at point-blank, or when the Knights are distracted (and even then, 3 damage is not enough).

    I don't understand what Archers are supposed to do anymore. Set stuff on fire? Big whoop - one archer can burn an entire wooden base themselves. Blow holes in walls from a distance? Well, if they had MONEY, they'd be capable of doing that a bit more often. What are the guys with regular arrows supposed to do? Happily run around getting killed left and right because they're trying to fire their triple-shots at point-blank?

    Yet we have so many people playing Archer, which absolutely confounds me. Maybe they're like me, and they keep hoping that if they play more, they'll get to a point where they'll be capable of actually making a difference.

    Not likely.

    If you want to have fun playing KAG, don't play Archer. There's just no satisfaction, because you don't get enough kills, don't make enough money, and just suck a lot more in general.


    This has been Nighthawk raging for the upteenth time. Feel free to return the favor by telling me how wrong I am and how amazing you all are at Archer.

    [/rage end]


    Edit 1 - Oh, hey, and one moreanother thing. You guys remember the olden days of Alpha, where Knights would always be saying, "Damn Archers!"

    It's not happening very much anymore. Actually, it's hardly happening at all.

    ... I don't think that's because everyone is suddenly filled with goodwill and tolerance, let's just say that.


    Edit 2 - Let me preemptively say that I lied.
    Yeah, I am trying to convince you.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2013
    Trumbles, Malitha, Kriegson and 9 others like this.
  2. amgtree

    amgtree Bison Rider

    Messages:
    482
    I'm with you 100%. Yes there balanced, but they still do absolute sh*t. Before when I played archer it was fun. Now I find my self raging(as always) 2 minutes into the class.
     
  3. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    2,508
    Well, tbh I tend to rotate to whatever class is most needed, so my funds and KD tend to be evened out. That said, I wonder whether it would be worth balancing the amount of coinage archers get from hits to help avoid the "Imma always stone poor" effect. Ofc, we'd have to be careful to not give them too many coins, because the statement "I'm going archer to farm coins" is just as bad as "I never have coinage to buy special arrows". But a slight tweak for balance might not be a bad move, all things considered.
     
  4. Ratka

    Ratka Shipwright

    Messages:
    158
    You can make them less flimsy, but in doing so you can't keep the water arrow. Give them more coins per kill or whatever, but that abomination can't be kept in the process to prevent even more stun arrows being spammed. You can take the water bomb away from knights if you want as well, I don't care. On your comment concerning "Damn Archers!", I find myself saying it a good bit when I am in the thick of battle and get some random arrow that stuns me or when there are 4-5 archers consistently firing out a stream/wall of arrows. You may think they can't do much, but that wall of arrows will prevent enemy knights from attacking teammates.
    "Big whoop - one archer can completely destroy a wooden base alone and I want them to do MORE than crush an entire rounds worth of building with a single shot. Blow holes in and destroy walls from a distance? They can't do it without effort, I want that to change!" Don't get me wrong, a keg can take down a wall easily too, but with the removal of fire satchels the knights can't destroy a wooden base with ease. Then there is the issue with scaling most walls and being able to then set the base/support on fire. You wonder why people like this class, yet it is capable of quite a lot of destruction as you pointed out. Hell, I play it myself from time to time, grappling around and throwing boulders at people is quite fun.
     
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  5. Yagger

    Yagger Kouji's bitch 5eva Staff Alumni Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    646
    I'm usually saying "FUCK ARCHERS" in chat because they either goomba-stomp and follow by a three-charge shot that kills instantly or have a full charge arrow that takes around 1-2 seconds hitting me in the middle of battle and killing me.

    I wouldn't mind archers getting a little more coinage per kill, but not some insane amount as some have said "ill go farm archer lel". I still see veterans getting wrecked by archers; hell, I saw an archer grapple around with a boulder and just wreck people by swinging and tossing it. Have you seen how OP a group of two or more archers can wreck people by just 3-shotting or just shooting at the same time. Of course, they're still pretty squishy if you can /actually/ get close to them or hit them with a bomb.
     
    Apronymous likes this.
  6. Crabmaster

    Crabmaster Bison Rider
    1. Zen Laboratories

    Messages:
    322
    I have been playing archer and builder more often lately, archer more so, as I wanted to try some new combat and such. And I gotta admit I am enjoying the current archer design, sadly midgame to endgame I don't do nearly as good as the FPS drops, but otherwise I feel I do really good for only having played 5 maybe 6 games of archer at most in Beta, and soon enough I might finally be passing that 1:1 KD.

    Archer is very mobile, and one must remember this when fighting, even when you haven't even gotten near to closer combat you still have to dodge other's arrows, while positioning to shoot your own(and don't get me started on bomb dodging), and in "close combat" your biggest strength is keeping distance! Your arrows are fast, so keeping distance and paying attention means you can do a lot with the right openings! Ontop of that Archer is crazy powerful against siege weapons and bases, if there is an archer, wood buildings and thin ones are gone...

    I will agree though, something needs to be done about the coins in CTF. Bomb arrows are only somewhat effective, so maybe make them a tad bit cheaper? I dunno how well they work on siege, but they take a good few to break any tower at all...Meanwhile a game I played recently a knight was somehow able to constantly come to our base always having a KEG, I do not know how he could afford so many, he had at least 10 within that game, and absolutely destroyed our frontline! I feel upping the price of KEGs a tiny bit might cause people to use them more wisely, and also prevent endless loops of KEGs on some maps? And downing the price of bomb arrows a tiny bit might make people actually use them!
     
  7. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

    Messages:
    2,196
    Yeahhh I don't know if you've seen this Nighthawk but I've been arguing the exact same thing all over the forum/IRC and it just seems like people are completely blinded by their knight privilege. It's painfully apparent that knights have a huge impact on the game every round whereas archers seldom accomplish much of anything. I am bragging when I say I often get 10 KD and crush entire teams while taking all their flags/halls, but it's also true. And many other knights do the same or similar.

    Coinage is a really really big problem for archers in CTF especially since the only way an archer can really hope to accomplish something is through the use of special arrows, which are hella expensive. On top of the other issues you mentioned, archers are also really disadvantaged at coin accumulation since so much comes from picking up coins bouncing around on the ground. Knights pick up enemy coins pretty much instantly but archers, being a bit farther back rarely have an opportunity to do so.

    I don't know if you're in the testing forum but a few of us were just discussing these exact issues last week. The topic kinda died down but I proposed a few things, such as bringing damage up to a flat 1.5 on each arrow (a bit hamhanded but I think it's the simplest change that would get the job done), reducing the cost of arrows in CTF, and making it so that swords don't cancel special arrows.
     
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  8. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    I agree with OP.

    Not going to do wallposts here

    hopefully

    Assisting on a kill should give you a kill as well. The archer should actually be rewarded for his doings, it's not really nice or rewarding when you don't miss a single shot, yet your KD is around 1:1.

    I'm not sure about 1,5 heart damage though, grouped archers spamming triple shot is already quite effective.

    I'll go ahead and simply state that bomb arrows should come in way bigger stacks, perhaps of 6. Fire arrows as well. This'll allow archers to do some actual impact on the battle. For a long time I've thought that archers should rather be an utility unit that counters builders largely, not a DPS unit that massacres people. That's what the knight is.

    Also.. as much as it hurts me to say it, I think bombjumps should be nerfed.

    There would be much, MUCH better class synergy if archers had bigger stacks of special arrows and knights couldn't get over enemy structures so darn easily. An archer with special arrows - one that can avoid the enemy attacks long enough, mind you - would become a vital element on the battlefield, actually helping his knights to wreak havoc.

    Consider the following:

    Knights are a high DPS unit. They don't have much utility however (nerfed bombjumps) , and a builder stops the knights dead on their tracks given the resources. The enemy builder needs to be countered before the knights can progress and hopefully return with a few flags. This can generally be achieved by 3 ways right now:
    1) Ally builders laddering his knights over the enemy structure.
    This doesn't eat up much resources, however it can be very easily countered by the enemy knights from the safety of their tower, raining projectiles or men upon the coverless builders. However, it can lead to success if the sieging builder manages to block the enemy exits off.​
    2) Constructing siege units to destroy the enemy structure.
    This eats up a lot of resources and requires great teamwork to accomplish, as the siege engine itself is easily countered by bomb spam and can turn against you if the enemy knights overcome your troops. However, if builders create cover quickly and your knights are superior, this can lead to a very quick succession considering how powerful catapults are. This level of teamwork is incredibly difficult to achieve in public servers, though.​
    3) Knights get lucky and manage to transport a keg to the root of the enemy structure.
    This is self-explanatory. It applies to mines as well.
    See how archers aren't mentioned anywhere? That's because at their current state they can't efficiently counter ANYTHING but wooden structures, which are a rarity. With increased stacks, however, the archers would actually be able to counter both builders and siege machines. Builders have incredible amounts of "hidden" power. It mightn't be apparent, but a good building will change the whole pace of a match easily.

    Now that we have bigger special arrow stacks..
    4) Archers loaded with special arrows completely wreck the enemy structure.
    This would be highly accessible on pub level of play, and probably would bring an end to stalemates eventually. Keep in mind that you need loads of money to maintain your special ammo stacks though, so matches are unlikely to end in 2 minutes due to bomb arrow spam. It is highly likely that the general aggro focus would switch from builders to archers, thus making their job harder.

    The loadout of an archer should be visible from his sprite by the way, which may need some additional effort from Geti, but it would be completely worth it.

    Giving archers their own niche would be easy like this, making archers a vital asset for their team. At the moment all archers would be benefiting their team more if they played knight, and this kind of misogyny should change in my opinion.

    Also, damn. It's a wallpost. I can't hold myself in this subforum it seems. TL;DR can be found at the top 7 paragraphs. Please argue with me so I can go into bigger detail why these changes are good and how they'd benefit the game.​
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2013
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  9. hows the K/D point valid at all, are you a scoreboard whore

    dont really care about balance because whatever happens the game will be infected with shitlords minecrafting entire round

    e: in perfect world you should probably buff bomb arrows, fuck retards who cannot even make fucking walls and then cry for nerfs
     
  10. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    Ok, don't nerf bomb jumps. You know how many builders sit back and minecraft during the game? I would guess 90%. Builders don't go to the front lines very often, so knights would just be sitting at the bottom of the enemy tower saying, "Now what the fuck are we supposed to do here?"

    And as for archers: why don't they make each bomb arrow 20 coins? Bomb arrows have as much, maybe a little less than bombs, so why shouldn't they cost the same? also, don't make the stacks larger If the price goes down. You don't hear knight's complaining about how they can't bring 10 bombs into battle because everyone drops them. If every archer drops the special ammo when they die, archers can just go and grab it, just like how knights do.
     
  11. Rainbows

    Rainbows KAG Guard Forum Moderator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    985
    Maybe the revolutionary idea of swapping to a builder class would help?
     
  12. 8x

    8x Elimination Et Choix Traduisant la Realité Forum Moderator Tester Official Server Admin
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    1,318
    Somehow, @FuzzyBlueBaron , the truth is that sometimes one plays Knight to farm coins to buy special arrows, and catas. Usually, unless you do too bad, as knight you can get 2/3 bombs, or the combo i like, 1 bomb 1 mine, with which you can open walls easily. I believe, on the other hand, that we have to explode the anti-siege abilities of the archer, I haven't tried them yet.

    It's true that archer k/d at ctf is not that good, but, let's say, archers are bound to camp and assist or counter attack from distance. You can play a whole game without dieying, and, aye, not taking any risks at all, which some players will like. The problem gets more real at TDM, where you have to run away from knights and climb to a spot they can't reach. At TDM archer k/d is ridicolous in comparision to knight. What is more, archers find a lot of difficulties when shooting fom 1 tile windows, arrows will likely hit your castle instead of going thru, archerspots as in Classic are not that possible.
     
  13. Crabmaster

    Crabmaster Bison Rider
    1. Zen Laboratories

    Messages:
    322
    ^This
    Or maybe using those bombs to...I dunno...go through the castle? Makes it easier to get back out, too!

    Lowering the price of bomb arrows is a good idea, making them equal to bombs is also a good idea. Giving a player 6 for the current price is a bad idea, in-fact that would be putting it on the other extreme, which seams to be a common issue with balancing this game, something weak becomes OP and something OP becomes weak...

    The archer will always be a support class, in my eyes, and will always be somewhat of a "glass cannon" weak but dishes out powerful blows. And I feel all the class really needs to fit this roll is a boost on how many special arrows it can get and nothing more. Nothing worse than scaling into an enemy base and being out of fire arrows to burn shops with! Also, because someone else mentioned it, maybe something does need to be done about bomb jumping? The Archer is a class big on being the mobile one, yet knights can get into the enemy's base a lot easier in most cases, and also do more damage while inside, which is a problem! If the archer is meant to be the one to break defenses and siege weapons why are they not good at it?
     
  14. Yagger

    Yagger Kouji's bitch 5eva Staff Alumni Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    646
    Although I half-agree / disagree with a lot of people in here about archers, such as them possibly getting coins for assists and just getting more coins in general (agreed with), some of these ideas are like "why?". Bomb-jumping doesn't need to be nerfed; half the time I play archers sit in the back and builders are so squishy at the moment they can't even front-line builder (*wink wink* builders weak *wink wink*) As said by Crabmaster, I will always see archers as a glass cannon / support role since they can basically change the game with fire arrows and possibly bomb arrows, along with helping support knights in general combat or forming huge squads to just wreck people with constant fire. K/D isn't really that big of a problem as most people put it; as long as you're supporting your team and helping in battles why the hell does it matter? In any game you've seen, when have archers ever had more kills than general melee / CQ guys unless they were really good?

    TL;DR : Don't nerf bomb-jump. More coins to archers, maybe 4-6 bomb arrows for each 20-30 coins (equivalent to bombs, probs be tweaked), 3-6 fire-arrows for every 30 (maybe). K/D doesn't matter.
     
    Apronymous likes this.
  15. Jlordo

    Jlordo Nobody Donator

    Messages:
    417
    Archer spots are great in beta. Just use wooden platform to block out arrows from one side, while being able to shoot out of them the other way.
     
  16. Rocinante

    Rocinante Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    133
    I have an idea, to be considered alongside those already spoken to by others: remove useless K/D info from tab panel in CTF and TTH, replace with icons that signal who on your team is playing as archer, knight, or builder. This, combined with fixed vote-kicking, would make the tab panel worthwhile.
     
  17. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    I agree with the ideas that vote-kicking needs to be fixed, and symbols showing classes would be great. BUT... K/D is how we know who's good and who isn't. (and who we need to try to avoid and who we should head-hunt ;))
     
    Crabmaster likes this.
  18. Crabmaster

    Crabmaster Bison Rider
    1. Zen Laboratories

    Messages:
    322
    Maybe add a working assist counter/assist system, if this game is going to have support classes it is going to need assists for both scoring and rewarding the support class(f.e. coins for doing some of the damage while another person gets the last hit).

    Also yes, the Roll Play server proves the need for a working vote-kick, and also the need for either a smaller GUI in the tab menu or one that can be scrolled down on, maybe both!
     
  19. Ratka

    Ratka Shipwright

    Messages:
    158
    You can have people who would completely wreck you that have low KD because they're currently a builder or something, and ones that only have high KD from camping or sitting in a siege engine and would get crushed in combat. Then there is the case of an average knight among bad players having high KD. Besides, there are better forms of this system that take more variables into account, such as assists, workshops and such built, and blocks destroyed. I agree with Crabmaster on the assist counter being added to the Scoreboard, and I would think it wouldn't be too hard to implement but I don't know all too much about coding.

    Edit: A good example of what KD can do and how unreliable it is would be Planetside 2. People in that game pad their stats in any way they can, from logging out to prevent one death to sitting in a spawnroom camping so they won't die. You can have a guy with 200 kills to 10 deaths who can't shoot for shit and only got those kills from kill-stealing and spawnroom camping.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2013
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  20. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    I have a .15 KD. I only play builder, and only occasionally swap to knight when either on the defensive or when none of my other team-mates are being a knight. Still, as a builder, I constantly rush to the front and place down ladders, block exits, and as a knight I kamikaze kegs into the enemy all the time. (I don't care about KD so kamikaze'ing into buildings is highly effective 98.5% of the time!)

    KD is stupid. I do agree that archers, when making a kill, need to get coins immediately. They can't hop to the ground where they're vulnerable just to grab a few, so it's only fair that they get a good amount automatically.