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Concerns about the new updates regarding bombs.

Discussion in 'Classes & Mechanics' started by Brilly, Aug 30, 2012.

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  1. Brilly

    Brilly Haxor

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    Let's state a few of the changes:

    1. Bombs no longer wipe out spikes.

    2. Picking up an enemy bomb and throwing it will not save your teammates anymore.

    3. Bombs no longer detonate other bombs in close range, and will instead each explode in turn.

    How do you feel about these changes?

    Number 3 bothers me the most.
     
  2. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

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    I actually suggested #1 and #3, why does #3 bother you?

    it bothered me when teammate bombs would blow eachother up, so you couldn't bombjump at the same time, or someone could grief you by throwing a bomb at you when you're trying to bombjump.
     
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  3. Brilly

    Brilly Haxor

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    I don't mind #1 so much, but a bomb should be able to at least take out the spike it was thrown at, and any consecutive spikes next to it.

    It was nerf'd a bit too hard in my opinion.

    I'd actually prefer that the spikes have damage levels, much like stone does when bombed.



    There are many reasons that #3 is just plain irritating, here's one.

    Many pros used the strategy of throwing 1 bomb behind a knight, and 1 bomb in front of a knight to corner the knight into an impossible position.

    A simultaneous explosion would force the enemy into a favorable position for slashing.

    A must have technique when fighting 3 or more knights at end game by yourself.






    I really don't feel bomb jumping should be more prioritized than actual game play.

    I mean, bombs blow up other bombs and make a huge explosion.

    That's pretty much how they work.
     
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  4. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

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    Bomb jumping is actual gameplay, did you think it was fake gameplay? Or a minigame or something?

    Why should one technique you like be more important than bomb jumping? In fact even forget bomb jumping. Bombs blowing up other bombs was terrible for a number of much more important reasons. Bombs blowing up other bombs leads to a number of really shitty deaths like when you try to throw a short fuse bomb and a derp behind you decided to toss one randomly. Boom you're dead for a bullshit reason. Bombs blowing up other bombs makes the game less predictably, therefore more random, and therefore requiring less skill.
     
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  5. Brilly

    Brilly Haxor

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    What you're saying is that you would rather pander to the less competent (AKA the derps) so that they don't kill each other by accident.


    Bombs should strike fear into the hearts of those that use them.

    Those that can't handle the risks shouldn't use them.




    Bombs blowing up other bombs was literally the most predictable part of the game.

    Chaos is having to dodge 3 bombs rather than one big explosion. TOTALLY REALISTIC AND PREDICTABLE!

    The current system rewards noobs that just spam bombs, hoping to get a kill.

    The previous system punished that behavior.





    More importantly, it fucks up 1 on 1s, and you can't fuck up on a bomb jump by yourself.


    I really don't remember a single time where I ever fucked up anyone else's bomb jump, or when anyone else fucked up mine.

    I keep my distance from other players when I do it, so what are you arguing here exactly?
     
  6. Guro

    Guro SNAP INTO A SLIM JIM

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    That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I have never seen an aardvark but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't exist.

    The changes to bombs create a more stable gameplay environment with less possibility for certain forms of griefing. It simply removes another mechanic that encourages random gameplay and random gameplay =/= fun gameplay in my opinion. If I wanted random gameplay I'd go play Mario Party or something.You mentioned that some pros use 2 bombs to corner a knight, but I would question their status of "pro" if they need to waste 2 whole bombs to kill a single enemy player.


    I think you're misrepresenting his argument a little. I don't think anybody is particularly concerned about newbies killing each other so much as newbies/griefers killing skilled players with stray troll bombs.

    All that said, I do agree with #2. I thought that was a cute little feature and I am a little unhappy that it was removed. It's of no big concern to me though as it was a really situational sort of thing.
     
  7. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

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    I was saying that derps could kill any player, even one so high and mighty as you. Again, read my example. You could be cooking a bomb for a close range kill when someone could randomly toss a bomb behind you. That kills you.


    Why?


    I'm sure this soundbyte sounds good in your head but this is extremely nonsensical. Most of the game mechanics are more predictable. Walking is more predictable. Gravity is more predictable. Why would you even say that? Bombs blowing up bombs is very unpredictable for a number of reasons:
    1. The radius at which bombs will blow up other bombs is a fine line that is hard to judge.
    2. Compounding 1. is the fact that bombs are often in motion very quickly, and combined with timer means its nearly impossible for someone to tell if one bomb will blow up another.
    3. Bombs can be thrown instantly. Similarly to my previous example a bomb could be in front of you, with you ready to shield it. Someone could randomly poop out a bomb at your back. You die for no reason.

    Even if bombs were easy to predict, bombs blowing up bombs is a bad mechanic because a person shouldn't have to guard themselves from the attacks of their allies as well as their enemies.

    How is having to dodge 3 separate bombs worse than not having any opportunity to dodge because the "one big explosion" is hitting you from both sides at the same time.


    How so? Bombs blowing up other bombs reward spam because it's harder to predict when they'll explode, lowering the valuable of timing and aim since its place and time of explosion is less in your control.

    How?

    Why is this a relevant point? No one claimed it did.

    Just because you don't remember it happening doesn't mean it never happens or that it isn't important. It's happened to me, it's happened to Rayne, it's happened to a number of people.

    Again, you are not the only player who is important. What this boils down to is that bombs blowing up other bombs affects players unfairly by ruining their bomb throws/jumps or even killing them for the actions of their teammates, for factors they can't always control or account for.

    edit: ninja'd by Guro.
     
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  8. Brilly

    Brilly Haxor

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    Still not seeing how it was more random before than it is now.

    Like I said, a guy throws 3 bombs next to each other. Watching them blow up in turn is laughable, unrealistic, and furthermore, chaotic.

    It simply doesn't make sense to have them not blow up simultaneously.

    Last time I checked, mario party was turn based.

    You will not win an argument claiming that it was more random under the other system.
    It simply wasn't.

    Also, these troll bombs?
    I'm supposed to believe that argument from not 1, but 2 guards?
    Come on guys, you're supposedly moderating the game.

    Let's make this simpler to understand.
    Making bombs not detonate each other is almost as ludicrous as making a bomb not be able to damage the bomb thrower.
    If you were to do the later, it would destroy the game for me.

    Contrary, I know you spend your time as an archer.
    Trust me as a predominant knight player when I say that close range knight combat, as well as high level fake out strategy has been crippled as a result of the change.
    Furthermore, it is not fair to those who deal with this situation often in close range combat.
    You bomb jump maybe 4 to 5 times tops every game?
    Compared to a knight that has a low ball number of 100 close combat situations every game?
    Literally no more than 1% of your time is spent bombjumping, whereas a good knight should spend about 30% of his time fighting in close combat.
    In terms of gameplay alone, this change affects a huge chunk of how I and many other players play the game.



    I'm saying there's a better answer out there.
    The change solves your problem, but it creates so many others.

    Please reconsider.
    </br>--- merged: Aug 31, 2012 6:43 AM ---</br>
    Oh, and I forgot to add:


    Is your enter broken or something? You don't need space between every sentence. I clicked some backspace for you. - jay
     
  9. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

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    1) And flying across the sky by shielding a bomb does? Realism is not an attribute of this game.


    2) It happens more often than you'd want to believe, there'd be many situations where a team mates bomb will cause my death because they're too dumb to realize i'm holding a bomb already. Also, adding that snide comment just makes me not want to read your posts btw.


    3) I don't know about you, but I bombjump the majority of the game, I distract the enemy at their base while my team makes progress on the front. it's a legit tactic and you should use it more if you want to understand my point of view. after all, not everyone plays the same.


    4) What problems did it cause? I do my fair share of cqc combat and the new bombs have only made my experience better. Now I'm able to dodge to bombs on either side of me, being killed by something i can't block is utter bullshit. With new bombs i'm able to shit out bombs and fuck up entombers, whereas there was no clear solution to them before. a friend and myself can now bombjump together and do air raids more easily, combined with the gliding when bombjumping variable, this makes for epic moments.


    So what problems are you facing? because i really don't understand
     
  10. Kouji

    Kouji Cold, Uncaring, Sadistic, Evil and Cruel Meanie Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
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    It was more random before. Now you here a bomb, you know exactly how long it's going to take to explode. Before, that wasn't always possible for one, a bomb could have lit a bomb off screen and you wouldn't know when it'd explode (don't say it doesn't happen, several good knights actually do light their bombs up a bit before they even see enemy knights if they know there's conflict nearby). Also currently, people lagging won't make your own bombs blow up with bombs that you won't see.

    As Contrary said, why are you wasting 3 bombs on a single person? 3 bombs, get at least 4 kills if you are terrible. Also, if you are surrounded by 3 bombs, at least if you have enough skill, you'd be able to dodge. In a game with skill, there really shouldn't ever be a situation where you are totally screwed. If you have enough skill, you should be able to do something.

    Using a shield as a parachute, Bomb Jumping without dying, being able to carry enough stone and wood to make a tower 250 times your height and using a hammer to cut wood and stone probably wouldn't make sense either.

    Random is bad in games of skill. Why? Because random involves 0 skill. Winning with 0 skill in a game of skill is just plain stupid.

    People are dumb. It's true. People I've seen had their bomb jump ruined because of an idiot/troll: Contrary, Ej, Rayne, BlueLuigi, Amuffinattack, OverLord. All of these people are very good at bombjumping. Also, this a list of people I've seen , on my screen, not just hearsay or someone saying it in chat.

    That seems more like an opinion more than anything

    Lol. Contrary is either a knight with a cata, or he's a knight with a cata. The only time I've seen him go archer is whenever we were playing Build 190, and one time when our whole team had decided to go all archer (which resulted in main lols). Otherwise I've only seen him play knight.

    As Rayne said, more skill is now involved.

    A good knight knows all skills. He knows when to jab and protect, when you can slash, when bomb jumping into the base is a good idea and would also know how to kill a person with a single bomb (because anymore than that is a waste). If you are complaining about it, you probably aren't as skilled as you think. (snide comments for snide comments). Also I'm a kinda of meh knight so I can beat people more skilled than me, but I still lose pretty quickly to knights more skilled than me.

    Would like to see other players defending your position.

    Also as Guro said, only issue I have with is #2 simply because I'd consider that a loss of skill. Knights who throw bombs too early, should get some punishment.
     
  11. Brilly

    Brilly Haxor

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    1. You're right, it's not about realism, but if you wanna go that route, a simultaneous explosion simply sounds cooler.



    2. Snide comment? I'm not the one being passive aggressive here you know.



    3. I don't know about you, but I see bomb jumping as something you use when you don't have access to a cata. Why waste a bomb, right?

    I'm more of a frontline knight honestly. I could enter the back door if I wanted, but it's simply more pleasurable to brute force the front, and tear that hymen to shreds. Mmmmm, collapse all over it baby...



    4. Your experience has been made easier, not better. There's a key difference between the two.



    There is a way to block the 2 bombs, you have to jump. Don't claim it's impossible to counter this, it isn't.



    Let's paint another common scenario for you, which I consider to be complete bullshit.

    Two enemy knights are fighting each other. Both are holding bombs. One throws his bomb behind the other knight. The other shields towards that bomb, while still holding his own. The other knight survives while still holding his bomb, and then throws his bomb at the other knight, who is obviously shielding as well.

    Stalemate.

    A boring pathetic stalemate.

    This eliminates the challenging and exciting fake out battles that I truly enjoy with simultaneous explosion bomb combat.

    WHO ACTS FIRST?

    WHO HAS BALLS OF STEEL?

    These questions are rendered meaningless by the new system.

    I like a challenge Rayne.

    It's simply too easy to dodge bombs now.




    Now I have nothing against bomb jumping, but please don't let that be your only reason to cripple high level play.

    Surely there must be a better solution.
     
  12. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

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    Once I believed that logic and reasoning would be the golden bridge to unite all mankind, that our walls could be broken down and we could reach utopia on the wings of sound arguments.

    Now I don't believe anything anymore. :(

    Everyone is patiently addressing your points with logic and examples, while you're replying with non-arguments like:
    This is literally just saying "No no you're wrong because I say so".
     
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  13. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

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    If easier means i'm not being blown up randomly by teammates bombs, then yes you're right, my experience is easier now.

    It's near-impossible to dodge 2 bombs timed correctly, jumping can help, but often the people who know what they're doing wouldn't throw a bomb downwards in that situation, they'd throw it upwards because the other bomb is on the ground already.

    Incase you haven't noticed, enemy bombs are still exploded by your bombs, it's only team bombs that don't explode on eachother.

    If being passive aggressive means pointing out your rudeness, sure, whatever.

    Also, bombjumping > catapult. You get more than double the distance with good bombjumps.
     
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  14. Shadlington

    Shadlington THD Team THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    Even though it has already been said in this thread, I don't think Brilly has caught on yet that this change only affects team bombs. His example is about bombs from opposing teams, which are unaffected.

    EDIT: Ninja'd by Rayne













    You know what this post needs more of? Line breaks.
     
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  15. Brilly

    Brilly Haxor

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    I also very clearly said that this effects 2 bombs thrown by the same person.

    Change that, and I'm very happy.

    It wouldn't effect bomb jumps at all.
    </br>--- merged: Aug 31, 2012 11:34 PM ---</br>

    And you're bringing up chaos out of fucking nowhere. It's not chaos if you have the reflexes to dodge it.

    And for the record, I don't have the best eyes in the world, which is why I use line breaks to make my posts easier for me to read.
    If you wanna make fun of that, feel free to be a huge fucking douchebag.
     
  16. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

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    Sure it wouldn't, but it'd get rid of this new thing bombs do that geti likes, and that is explode in turn, drilling through an entombers cage, fucking their shit up.

    I doubt it'll be changed, but you might be able to get a server variable for it, I'll bring it up to geti.
     
  17. Brilly

    Brilly Haxor

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    I mean, it's not impossible to just wait for 1 bomb to explode, and then throw the next one.

    But hey, if geti wants quick results, who am I to argue?
     
  18. Kouji

    Kouji Cold, Uncaring, Sadistic, Evil and Cruel Meanie Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
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    That gives entombers more than enough time to repair.
     
  19. Redigit

    Redigit is not my actual name, it's Tommasop.

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    Even though it is annoying it suppose to happen. Let's just say there's a real bomb and it explodes it will set off the other bomb used by another team mate which will cause a chain reaction. In a way it needs to be fixed. The KAG team should make it were only enemy bombs should blow up other enemy bombs, because people will be happy that the team mates will not bother with eachother
     
  20. Brilly

    Brilly Haxor

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    I'm aware that a competent entomber could pull that off.

    But all these questions start popping up about how the game should work at this point.

    How legit is entombing as a tactic?

    Is the offensive builder made more obsolete because of this change to the game?

    Should knights be able to traverse an entire map when given enough time and bombs while being without the help of archers or builders regardless of the obstacles?




    I'm just thinking aloud here, not really saying anything.
     
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