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Dead game is dead...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Leo, Sep 23, 2014.

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  1. PorkChop808

    PorkChop808 Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    18
    Don't flatter yourself.
     
  2. 16th

    16th Bison Rider

    Messages:
    254
    @Vidar , you god damn right.
    Game dead, coz it was murdered, don't know for what reason.
     
    Fuzzle likes this.
  3. Piano

    Piano Bison Rider

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    61
    #revivekagclassic
     
    16th and icemusher like this.
  4. GIF

    God damn right you are.
     
  5. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    2,508
    Sigh. That's not what I meant. If you re-read over my posts you'll notice that I very specifically avoid telling you to shut up or leave the thread. I do ask you to "pull your head in", but that's because the tread was looking like it was considering a trip to flametown, not because I wanted to silence you. I refused to enter into discussion with you because I didn't want to get drawn into an argument if you were going to continue to be overly negative; that said, feel free to continue it with others (although, my suggestion might be to couch your criticisms in ways that try and reduce their stinging qualities-- have a read through Vidar's post on the previous page if you want a sense of how to write something that delivers painful truths while trying to minimise the hurt caused).
     
    Fernegulus and Noburu like this.
  6. revsta

    revsta Shipwright

    Messages:
    88
    Minimize the hurt? If you actually do care about what you say you do, why don't you go look at my post history and see what's gone on. I don't sugar coat things about this game, but I also don't specifically attack anyone or make overly negative statements or talk a bunch of shit. If you have an issue w/the thread going to Flametown then why don't you go look at who it is that starts the flamewars, because it's certainly not me. I just don't sit down and take it, which is why the LK thing became a thing, and probably the last straw in their stupid little set up. You'll see me defend myself here, but if you wanna come at me and tell me to simmer down for that then maybe you need to re-evaluate exactly what kind of Mod you want to be...or are.

    It's an absolute fact that this game is filled w/bugs that need to be fixed.
    It's an absolute fact there are issues w/gameplay/classes/balance that discourage new players, and it's an absolute fact that the current 'community' doesn't want to acknowledge any of these issues.
    It's an absolute fact that there are issues w/admins in this game. Yes I had issues with LK admins, and I pointed those out directly. I haven't lumped ALL admins in or made blanket statements about ALL admins, and if you'll notice there's another thread about this made by someone other than me on the front page of this forum.

    Lots of people here like to personally attack me rather than facing the issues about this game, or like to somehow misconstrue my criticism for hate and then tell me to leave.

    I LIKE this game. I think the principals behind it are great, even though it's simply Terraria with PvP and Harry Potter theme music ripped off -- I still like it.

    What I don't like is a major percentage of the 'community' who are hostile and take the game more seriously than it is. This game is not some huge competitive tourney game like Quakelive or something, and it's not a hugely popular game like WoW. Right now it's a game that doesn't have a real player base, that doesn't have a real identity, and is pretty much unreccomendable to anyone who isn't a hardcore PC Gamer. But, as recently witnessed IN THIS THREAD, the Devs are completely fine with that, because they've sold a boatload of copies, and this is even MORE insulting to players who like the game, considering they claim 1 million + sales, but still don't have time to fix bugs that have been here for months and months and months, have no apparent plan for the future of this game or its eventual release status from Beta, and are totally inactive with community interaction and feedback on the level they should be for the sales they have. To have claimed to have sold 1million + copies of a game that has 60 people on at a time should tell you something is wrong. To be posting on the Forums in a thread about your game being dead, claiming it's NOT dead in that very thread, because you've sold a bunch of copies, and then not having a plan for the game or an answer for its lack of player base is absurd arrogance at best and downright disdain for your consumers at worst.

    The people who understand what's wrong w/this game and see it dying had better speak up, because right now the only people who are really saying anything are just here to start arguments and to defend a game that's dying. How the Devs treat this game is a disgrace and how the community treats new players is just as bad. 1million + sales and 60 people on at a time in a game that's in fucking Beta? I dunno how to justify the health of a game when .00006% of its consumer base is on at a time.
     
    Fuzzle and icemusher like this.
  7. makmoud98

    makmoud98 You are already DEAD Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    586
    umadbro?
     
  8. revsta

    revsta Shipwright

    Messages:
    88
    Thanks for making my point.

    And nope, I'm not. People can't discern emphasis from madness.
     
  9. makmoud98

    makmoud98 You are already DEAD Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    586
    i can
     
    icemusher likes this.
  10. Potatobird

    Potatobird Haxor Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    777
    That's a huge exaggeration.

    They fix bugs all the time, and I can honestly say bugs don't have any significant impact on my experience in game. The only one I can think of lately was getting killed through a tunnel by a builder whacking me from across the map, which resulted in one death in one game, and in the grand scheme of things is kind of amusing really.

    It can be hard for people to get into because it is very skill and practice based, and due to the size of the community newbies are pit against veterans and get rekt time after time. Some people don't like that and leave. That's really the only thing I can think of. I'm pretty sure we talk about that and other barriers to entry all the tine on these forums

    Then play on a different server, I have never seen any issues like that in official servers. Anyone can host, so how do you expect this "problem" to be fixed?
    (My suggestion for that btw is to get rid of quickjoin, and make people actually look at the server list.)

    ---

    As for the community, with such a small playerbase, the people who really play it a lot start to recognize up to 1/3 of the people in just any random game, sometimes even more. And then you end up with a big ol group that's pretty friendly with each other. Apparently there's been some elitism over time because of that, but I never really got a sense of that. If you were talking about the community as in everybody who's in your average game of kag, sure, there are some people who are just assholes to everybody, especially noobs - and they're usually the noisy ones. You can just votekick em if they're still mean after you ask em to cool down, chances are you're not the only one who doesn't want them around. That's not an ignored problem either, there's plenty of discussion on that stuff.

    Also something you misunderstand, this game isn't in beta. It's considered finished. They just update it every once in a while anyway. There isn't anything fundamentally wrong with it, it's a great little strategic fighting game that's quite fun, in my opinion of course. There are minor balance squabbles, sure, but nothing substantial.

    Is the game ded / dying? I really don't think so. It seems to be about the same size as when I joined at the beginning of the year, maybe one or two active servers less. You can still always join a game of kag in your area, even with mod servers taking away some of the players. It's just a small game, so what if it's sold a ton of copies over the year, does this really seem like the kind of game that would have tens of thousands of people on at all times? It's ten bucks, it's on steam. Maybe some of them bought it, quietly enjoyed it for a little while, and just went on to play something else. Sure, some people were probably frustrated with the barriers of entry and gave up. And then you have the people that just keep coming back.

    I don't care how "dead" it is, I'll keep playing it. I'm sure others will too.


    So there you have it, a big honkin' response. Others probably avoided it because you do come off as kind of a poopyhead sometimes. It just seems like you're putting a lot of effort into calling out the flaws of everything, and in the end that's not going to be very effective. That's probably all they've really been trying to say.
     
    Blue_Tiger, Psiklaw and icemusher like this.
  11. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    2,508
    >____________________________________________________________________________<

    And this, @revsta, is precisely why I told you to back off in the first place.

    Look, believe it or not, but I get that you love the game. I get that you want to help fix/improve it. I get that you've copped a lot of flak and that you won't just take it lying down.

    But.

    The way you're going about it isn't going to get you the results you desire. Your words and attitude are just too damn combative.

    You don't want to just sit there and take people's abuse? So don't! But don't give people added or continued reason by firing off rounds of your own. You want to highlight things that need fixing and way to fix them? So do! But put some thought & care into how you go about doing that, because otherwise all you'll end up doing is getting people offside.

    You point out that you "don't sugar coat things about this game". That's great, but have you ever heard the phrase: "just a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down"? I specifically pointed you to @Vidar's post because, despite leveling some pretty hefty charges at KAG, the devs, and the community, he makes a point of lessening any negative perceptions of his opinion by a) repeatedly highlighting that it's only his opinion, rather than some grab for ultimate truth; and b) ensuring the harshness of his tone doesn't detract from his message by making it abundantly clear that he's not trying to bash people, just trying to be truthful about his thoughts/feelings.

    Not really meaning to make a "how2post 101" here, but the main thing I'm getting at is that you need to take a more conciliatory approach if you want to actually help fix the game (because the only way it's going to happen is if everyone works on it together).
     
  12. revsta

    revsta Shipwright

    Messages:
    88
    Look at my last post and my other posts. Where am I NOT pointing out things with this game that need fixing/addressing to help it? Hmmmmmm?
     
    Fuzzle likes this.
  13. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

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    2,508
    You missed my point.

    It's not what you say that's problematic, it's how you say it.
     
  14. revsta

    revsta Shipwright

    Messages:
    88
    I don't give two fucks. I don't give a single fuck. People on this forum, who are not even being addressed by me, take offense to my posts and choose to not address or consider any of my points. Not everyone. But a lot of people.

    My points are no less true. People think because I say this game is dying that I'm somehow telling people to stop playing or they shouldn't be playing or I hate the game, which is nothing even remotely close to what I've said.

    This game has issues. Tons of them, the least of which are the bugs, and the largest being the lack of accessibility, learning curve and community. Quakelive had a similar problem and took steps in a recent patch to make the game more friendly to new players. A lot of the vets got their panties in a twist, but they continued to go on and Quake got a new bunch of players. This game isn't even officially released yet and it's having the same problem as a 10 year old game (or whatever).

    Instead of discussing the issues, people would rather bicker on this board. I won't be responding to anymore personal insults or off topic discussions. If anyone actually cares to discuss why this game is dying and what to do about it other than have the same 60 people playing off and on then I'm all ears, but otherwise don't bother.
     
    Fuzzle likes this.
  15. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    2,508
    And that, dear, is why you are mocked, ridiculed, and generally ignored in a thread like this. Oh well. Have fun with that.
    ---

    Anywho.

    @Fellere825, you mention community involvement being the cure to numbers, etc. could you elaborate on that a bi more? Did you have anything specific (or even general?) in mind?
     
  16. Potatobird

    Potatobird Haxor Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    777
    Okay, again, the game is not in beta.
    Also, again, here's a suggestion: No quickjoin button, easier-to-read server list, maybe a server focused on new players / learning. What do you think of it?

    It's better to share ideas than to just list problems, imo. What would be a better thread in the balance forum, a specific idea to make playing a class more fun? Or a thread called "Archers are ruining the game!?!"

    I know you don't want to care about your tone, but... please do! If you really want to have good discussions, then friendly mannerisms do make a big difference. It isn't that hard, I promise!
     
  17. revsta

    revsta Shipwright

    Messages:
    88
    Before I stop responding to these things, I'm not mocked and ridiculed. What I am is attacked for making suggestions by veterans in this game who are entrenched in the way things are and can't imagine the game ever changing, who don't care about growing a player base, who like to call people shitters and say 'rekt' and treat this game like it's /b/

    Even if I was being mocked and ridiculed for that, it would just make my point even more substantial that the player base in this game, as a whole, don't give two fucks about the actual game, they just want to argue among themselves, call each other shitters, say rekt, call each other 'nigger faggots' and so on and bury their heads in the sand while the game dies.

    Next time the doctor tells you you have cancer, make sure he has a smile on his face or don't believe him.
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 16, 2014, Original Post Date: Nov 16, 2014 ---
    I've made suggestions without tone and been shit talked, like when I mentioned builders should get points and everyone told me points don't matter and only knights should get points. Like when I mentioned I think bombs should be either nerfed or cost a little more and everyone told me I'm a newb, because I suck and that knights used to be better and therefore the fact that they aren't as good as they used to be justifies their status now...but I digress.

    I don't think joining servers is the issue. It's what happens when you join a game.

    When I brought my friend to play he had absolutely no idea what to do when a game starts. The issue isn't how to maneuver your character, but how to be a part of a team. I think the class layout on the TAB menu needs to be more obvious so people know what's what. I don't know how many games I run into where it's 9 players with 6 builders and 3 archers and no one realizes the team has no nights. Or maybe some warnings pop up like the team balance warnings saying like: Blue team has only 1 knight! Anyone want to swing a sword!?" I mean whatever. I think the tab/map/chat interface needs a drastic overhaul. The chat tab should be on its own away from the other messages so votes don't move out team chat. It's in a discrete place as it is and a lot of people miss out on what's being said by not glancing down.

    Another issue my friends who I try to get to play have is how easily they get killed. Knights just one hit everyone that isn't a knight, and it is a big learning curve to learn how to knight. It's also not that easy to aim arrows so if you join and are an archer that doesn't really know what he's doing, you're fucked. This game has a many day learning curve and doesn't place people really with people of their skill level. In an FPS you generally know how to shoot people, and you have to learn what guns are what etc., but in this game each class has a lot to learn. You have to learn how to wall climb back and forth, how to swing over walls as an archer, how to time your slashes as a knight or avoid them etc. and it just discourages most players from coming back. I personally don't have issues with this, but the game as a whole clearly does with how many people play vs. how many people bought the game.

    Classes need to be reworked somehow, and I don't claim to have a complete answer as to how, but right now newb builders don't really know how to build a base well. You get poorly laid out shops etc. Maybe some sort of layout function for builders so they can understand where to build things so we don't have shops at the edge of the map that can't be closed in, or shops not walled off, maybe there's some sort of alerts that could be built in for builders showing suggestions of where to place things or suggesting walls to close them in etc.?

    Maybe split classes up? Maybe two different types of worker? Base/defensive and offensive? Each do different things? Maybe two different types of knights? Maybe just rebalance knights?

    I'm throwing out ideas here, but all I know is the learning curve in a game like this is steep. New builders don't understand how to fortify a base well, and with knights being able to bomb jump like they are right now, a simple wall from a new builder doesn't help at all, and then he's gonna get pissed or shit talked and leave. New archers have a really really really hard time, and it takes a long time to know how to knight effectively. There are ways to right these situations while still maintaining the skill aspect of the game.
     
    Fuzzle likes this.
  18. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    @Vidar: I have a few perspectives here.

    Overall, as I said before, the game has gone a lot better than I ever could have expected. I came into this as a commission artist struggling to make rent, hired by one of my influences to work on a very interesting game concept. Over the following years I've learned a lot, made enough money to avoid a student debt and get a bigger place to live, traveled, made friends around the world, and decided to make a career of game development, which was one of my childhood pipe-dreams. So I'm very happy with how the whole thing's gone in that regard.

    In terms of the actual game, I still enjoy playing it and most of my contact with the community, but I agree wholeheartedly that it's got its flaws both in design (at least at a gamemode/item level) and execution. It's something I'm hoping to be able to sink some time into on sunday, but if you're after reasons for why the game is like it is, there are a couple:
    • Time: after working full time (and most weeks, overtime) on a game for 3 years we were (and to some extent, still are) very burnt out on it. Towards the end (of both cycles of the game) there were a few knee jerk decisions in amongst the rest of the development which will take some time to work themselves out. Largely things like TTH being very rushed, single player being very rushed, tech influence being rolled back further and further... Even so, we "released" it about 5 months later than we wanted to.
    • Money: before the steam launch, we were pretty broke. Things are much better in this regard now, but this compounded the time thing - we rushed a lot of things to get to the steam release because we needed it; MM has a kid to feed, I need food to eat and a roof over my head, we need to pay bills for hosting, admin, support... so we pushed it hard to get it out the door. I don't like that we did that, but we needed to to survive.
    With this perspective, I just kind of accept a lot of the issues as inevitable. Not good or something to be happy about, but also largely hard to do something about in the short term, and as I said I still enjoy playing.

    Either way, I appreciate you being frank about things. I believe @Contrary felt/feels largely the same way about a lot of this stuff.

    I've outlined our immediate plans earlier in the thread, but keep in mind that we're also looking to apply a lot of the lessons learned in other games, and not planning on sticking with the game as a "flagship" forever; it's been easier so far to make something nice with a clean slate, rather than with years of baggage and an existing community; that's not to say we're planning on dropping KAG in the short term, but it's part of the reason that as of late (by our standards at least), fixes and additions have been slow (though coming from the cortex command community, slow is relative).

    @revsta: I'm flattered by the comparison to quake. Everything else from you has been very hostile regardless of the lack of nigger faggot calling, especially assertions that you want admins to die of cancer (something we're uh, prone to be sensitive about here). You might have a view of yourself calmly pointing out all these flaws as if they're new fancy truths to open everyone's eyes, but FBB and the rest are right to point out you aren't providing solutions or being nice about what you're saying. (soft edit: wrote this up before your most recent post)
     
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  19. revsta

    revsta Shipwright

    Messages:
    88
    I'd love for you to quote me where I said I would like admins to die of cancer, so go ahead and dig that up for me.

    Also, you can make excuses you want all you want for the status of your game, but us consumers who paid for it, have every right to speak up. When you speak to Comcast for giving you shitty service, or the grocery store for selling you spoiled produce, or Amazon for sending you a defective product, or UPS for breaking your package in transit, do you just accept their excuses and move on? Or do you ask for your money back or compensation of some sort? Do you make suggestions?

    We paid for this game and supported it. I've put a lot of my friends on to it. This is an indie game, your struggles to get it going are not unique. Basically every indie dev does this out of passion and love and hopes to make money later. Well you did that, and you did make money later. Congratulations. You're no longer broke. You can't sell a million + copies of this game and be anywhere near broke. Cut the game down to a skeleton crew who can fix bugs and someone capable of listening to the community and introducing updates.

    I'm not innately hostile, but when I hear the insanely juvenile rational and excuses from people on this board it makes my head spin. We as the community of paying consumers are not here to care about your excuses for why the game isn't where it should be. I will listen and understand, but I want to hear some answers or plans or possible solutions from people -- which I'm not hearing. I'm also just being told over and over I'm being hostile. I don't care. I'm hostile to Comcast too when they put another 40 dollars on my bill hoping I won't notice.

    ps. the 'nigger faggot' calling happens in game, which you would notice if you read my posts hard and didn't confuse me with other posters. But yeah, dig up that post of me wishing cancerous deaths on admins. I'll wait.
     
  20. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    2,508
    ThumbsUp.gif
    I think Geti's referring to this:
    which, given that you're speaking to an admin and we lost a good friend & admin to cancer only recently, makes his reading understandable even if that's not what you intended.
    Okay, fine; but, innate hostility aside, there's still been a lot of this:
    IsMad.gif
    from you. Which some might interpret as a mite hostile, no? :huh?:
     
    Blue_Tiger likes this.
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