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Drills Builder Only [Official Thread] Vote Now!

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Ideas' started by Geti, Aug 5, 2014.

?

Yeah?

Poll closed Aug 9, 2014.
  1. Yeah

    70.1%
  2. Nah

    29.9%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Mods: Rainbows
  1. I think you might be pretty fucking abysmally bad then since bombs are much much more cost efficient, convenient, faster, provide travel, scare off people (and drills encourage them to slash you llolll) and are much more commonly used than drills are. Go figure why :^).

    Believe me I know how to deal with anything in this game, doesn't mean I think I should have to do it.
     
  2. Corpsey

    Corpsey Haxor

    Messages:
    124
    You had a strong offense and a well coordinated team, why shouldn't that have been successful?

    Also there are things you can do with coins that seems equally OP (fire arrows, bomb arrows, mines come to mind), so perhaps tagging on some sort of coin cost may reduce spam, for example, 100 stone + 50 coins. While it's not impossible to get 800 or so coins, it would at least filter out some of the drill + item combos.

    I mean really though, what was stopping the other team from raiding your drill supply and using your own drills against you? Just lack of imagination? Why is that the drills fault ::(: lol

    I don't really mind either way but I think that good teamwork like that should be rewarded. I mean what's the difference between that and a builder getting close with a drill anyways. Especially with the statement "The method is generally to clear out the front of their base of knights". Okay well, now that it's clear then... you have a builder on the front lines. Builder drills into soil, puts stone doors behind him, builds a forward tunnel and then drills up into the enemy base. :thumbs_up: If he ever needs a new drill, he can just teleport to base. Not to mention, just because knight and archer can't carry them wont mean that they can't still spam them down for builder to pick up.

    Edit: The next thing people are going to nerf is the ability to bring a flag through tunnels then? I mean if you look at most CTF games in the past - you generally aren't allowed to bring the flag onto vehicles or teleporters. This gives the other team a chance to recover them on the field. You know, while we're balancing out the OP things.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014
    norill likes this.
  3. Anonymuse

    Anonymuse Arsonist

    Messages:
    443
    Bombs: 25 gold each
    Drills: 70 stone (go builder for the other 30)

    • It'd be far quicker and safer to get the mats for one drill than to fill out 3 or 4 bombs.
    • Bombs aren't reusable, can only break through 4 stone in one direction (and if only placed perfectly). This is also assuming the other team doesn't grab it or attack you while you're trying to use it.
    • Bombs are more convenient and provide travel, assuming you have the gold necessary to buy enough to do any amount of damage.
    • Having a bomb out doesn't scare good knights away, which are really the only threat against you, it just makes them want to stun/grab it from you.
    • You don't pull the drill out until you're absolutely sure you're safe and can drill right into their base.
    • If you die, most likely you will drop free bombs everywhere for the other team, while a drill is commonly slashed and broke.
    • Drills are infinitely reusable assuming you can stay safe long enough, even then, they can do so much more damage and provide more access to an enemies base for your team than 4 bombs ever could.
    • Bombs are more commonly used because this game is full of noobs who don't even understand the strength of the drill, they just bomb spam. Also, people don't like to change classes and spend a bit of time mining for a drill when they could get into the action.
    Really, if you look at the facts and multitude of in-game examples as well as the poll results, you can probably figure out for yourself why drills are OP and need to be builder specific and why bombs aren't really OP and you may need a lesson or two on how to deal with them instead of trying to insult me thinking that proves anything.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 6, 2014, Original Post Date: Aug 6, 2014 ---
    @Corpsey
    The issue with knights and archers using drills is more about the higher level players who are so effective at getting into a base or close enough to wreak havic with 1 or more drills, it's not necessarily about a team since a one-man army is quite effective in itself.
    Some quick notes now:
    • fire arrows not OP, can easily be rendered useless using stone backwall which is superbly cheap
    • bomb arrows are somewhat OP, but are very expensive (150 gold for 3) to do a 3 block deep hole in a base whereas a drill could do 5-6 without overheating and even more just for 100 stone
    • mines are frequently slashed and broken before being able to be set off in front of a base (and it has to be directly against it to be effective), as well as dirt and bedrock absorption rendering them useless a good amount of the time
    • I've never seen a drill supply, as drills are generally used as they are made or stolen from builders who leave them on the ground (and the team would need to get over or through your base even to utilize them, and at that point you're probably not doing so good.
     
    kedram and Horse_That_Goes_Ni like this.
  4. Corpsey

    Corpsey Haxor

    Messages:
    124
    @Anonymuse
    • Fire arrows against knight. Often people don't make this correlation but they are very powerful when used this way.
    • Bomb arrows, expensive but I played a game this morning where I could afford 9 of them in a row. This is because I dominated the knight game. The same thing as drill, but I had a noob team so I couldn't actually sit at the base of the enemy's tower (otherwise I would've opted for drill or builder class).
    • Mines as in the ability to use them as uber bombs. You make a corpse, put the mine where you want a large opening, throw corpse onto bomb. Similar to bomb arrow but then you have a better ability to kill (instead of having to spend time retreating as archer, going knight, and coming back).
    • Digging through someone's rucksack by holding E to take their drill from their inventory is one of the best ways to screw the enemy team over. They're basically paying for their own destruction, teams that aren't aware of this are just bad. That's why I say that drills are a bit of a gamble, they are very fragile when out and if the knight dies with it you can take it for your own.
    All I'm saying is that what's actually happening is that you're winning the knight game, the drills just make it so that you can push that advantage once you have it. It's a similar concept for the reason we use coins to buy things that people consider OP - the knight game was won. All the drill is really doing there is concluding the game's inevitable result. Think about it - if I can afford 9 bomb arrows and collapse the enemy's flag tower into rubble because our team was winning the knight game that hard, it doesn't make the bomb arrow OP, it makes the team's effort successful, specifically by overwhelming them with bonus items obtained by winning the knight game. The drill does this in a different way by allowing a strong play to be made against the walls and towers of an enemy's castle HOWEVER some huge questions arise suchas Why was the other team just standing there allowing you to break their walls? Because they were archer? So why is that the drill being OP if they're just playing a class that can't stop a powerful, obvious, and well known play. I mean the same could be said if they were builder and just watching it happen... the lightbulb should go off to swtich class to knight and stick a sword in him maybe? You can even stay out of the range of the drill while you break it, and if they put it in their inventory it gives ample time to set up an attack to deal lethal damage, especially if your team is cooperating properly.

    I still think this comes down to one team just doing poorly, otherwise it should be able to be turned around just as easily with them buying drills. If that's not the case they're obviously too stupid to use that as a tactic, and that's not a problem with the drill, it's a problem with the users being incapable of understanding how to meet a proper attack.

    Even still, I don't disagree with them being POWERFUL, but 'overpowered'? Might be a bit of a stretch... they have their disadvantages just like everything else, and you just have to know how to counter them.

    Not like it matters what happens either, I can adapt ::): just saying, they've been they way there are now for so long and I've never once seen someone call them OP until now.
     
    Dargona1018 and Anonymuse like this.
  5. Anonymuse

    Anonymuse Arsonist

    Messages:
    443
    @Corpsey
    You've got some good points in there, and I have to agree that it's kind of a supplement to a probably already apparent advantage, but what really ruins it is very early game and when the enemy team is focusing on rekking your team so you "sneak" into their base and spam drills and when. It's an issue of quick, cheap wins that I don't like.
     
  6. Corpsey

    Corpsey Haxor

    Messages:
    124
    @Anonymuse
    Yeah I suppose, but having knight and archer not be able to carry them at all is the wrong way to go about it imo. There are some occasions where using drill as knight to get through stone near your enemy's fort can give you access to underground paths or create the start of a forward tunnel which you can come back to build later.

    Perhaps someone could think up a realistically balanced price for the drill that everyone can agree on? Or perhaps cost isn't the issue but rather the amount of material it breaks through? Currently it breaks through:

    11 ½ Dirt
    '17' Stone Blocks (16 and 2 half-brokens)
    22 Wood Blocks
    1 ⅔ Platforms (Yes, that's right, 1 ⅔! lol)
    ~∞ Stone Dirt
    Not sure how many doors (Sandbox wouldn't allow team attacking doors to test, I'm pretty sure they overheat quickly though)
    Not sure how much backwall because, again, sandbox.

    [​IMG]
    A visual of the damages. And yes, that's how much damage the plats took. Tried to see if backwall made a difference (it does not).
    [​IMG]
    Tried to get a picture of the dirt, you can barely make it out because of the night shot but it's not like this matter too much anyways, still data. Ignore the stone in the corner, everything that was mined was dirt (you can try it yourself).
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014
    Dargona1018 and norill like this.
  7. Anonymuse

    Anonymuse Arsonist

    Messages:
    443
    I kind of like the idea of re-balancing those values, but the poll results will probably still end up with knights and archers not being able to use them.

    What is absolute ridiculous is wooden platforms being so resistant to drills. It's not something I've really thought about when building around the flag, as I use platforms for keg/bomb protection, but it will also just completely stop drills, assuming there's at least two layers in there. I don't know if @Geti has considered changing the values, but it's not a bad idea.

    I'd say lower the amount of stone blocks that can be drilled through to possibly 10 or so, while dirt is also lowered to 8-10 to stop tunnelers from being such a mind-numbingly boring strategy. Wood could also be lowered, but a bit less to teach people to stop exclusively building with it, maybe 18 or so while platforms is raised to 2 or 3.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 6, 2014, Original Post Date: Aug 6, 2014 ---
    And to piggyback on this comment, making drills cost some wood may actually be a beneficial idea if not redundant anyhow. Currently, if you quickly spawn as builder, you're given 100 wood. So anything below 100 is kind of stupid because it won't change much about the drill spam. Raising the stone requirement to 150 or more would definitely reduce its use to some extent, but in the end a coin requirement may be the best bet. I'm thinking 20-30 gold would be a reasonable amount, forcing builders to not waste resources at the beginning of the game and maybe encourage them to at least build before buying one. Any suggestions?
     
  8. rymcd

    rymcd Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    287
    Can't tell if you're serious...
    How is a drill not useful for builder?
     
  9. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

    Messages:
    2,196
    of all the broken shit in this game you pick drills?!?!
     
    DatNobby, Nighthawk, PinXviiN and 6 others like this.
  10. rymcd

    rymcd Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    287
    It would take a very short time to fix this, unlike other issues with the game. The vote is just to confirm most of the community thinks drills should be builder only. I also think the people who don't agree with this don't build a lot. Wooden platform spam is already so bad and cheesy, drill spam forces you to use it nonstop.
     
  11. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    @Above image, that's exactly why platforms are now a solid part of my defense strategy when making structures. They take sooo much abuse and are pretty much drill and bomb immune.
     
  12. Corpsey

    Corpsey Haxor

    Messages:
    124
    It takes a loooooot of wood to make that many plats. I think you people are delusional, there will always be some balance point issue unless you want the game completely linear.

    FIRE ARROW. herpa. derp.
     
  13. kittycity

    kittycity Haxor

    Messages:
    256
    How would builders use a drill? They would drill the stone and gold then someone will post a thread on the forum yelling about it.
     
  14. Mfw I vote for no when I meant yes

    Well....
     
  15. startselect3

    startselect3 Arsonist

    Messages:
    261
    yay lets make the game even longer then it already is, man its gonna be so fun playing for hours and having half the people leave, oh and i just hope no one spams stalemate vote, oh that would just suck.
     
    PinXviiN likes this.
  16. Bint

    Bint Haxor

    Messages:
    536

    :castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall:
    :castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall:
    :castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall:
    :castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall:
    :castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall:
    Simples
     
    SirDangalang and Anonymuse like this.
  17. Corpsey

    Corpsey Haxor

    Messages:
    124
    @Bitch_Pleasicus
    :blank::blank::blank::blank::blank::blank::blank::blank::blank::blank::blank::bridge:
    :blank::blank::blank::blank::blank::blank::blank::blank::blank::blank::blank::bridge:
    :castle_wall::bridge::bridge::bridge::bridge::bridge::bridge::bridge::bridge::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall:
    :castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::bridge::bridge::castle_wall:
    :castle_wall::gold_b::gold_b::gold_b::gold_b::gold_b::castle_bg::castle_bg::castle_bg::castle_bg::bridge:
    :door::gold_b::gold_b::gold_b::gold_b::gold_b::castle_bg::castle_bg::castle_bg::castle_bg::bridge:
    :door::gold_b::gold_b::gold_b::gold_b::gold_b::castle_bg::castle_bg::castle_bg::castle_bg::bridge:
    :castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall:
    :bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall:
    :castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge:
    :castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall:
    :bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall:
    :castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge:
    :castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall:
    :door::castle_bg::bridge::castle_bg::bridge::castle_bg::bridge::castle_bg::bridge::castle_bg::door:*
    :door::castle_bg::door::castle_bg::door::castle_bg::door::castle_bg::door::castle_bg::door:
    :castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall:
    :bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall:
    :castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge:
    :castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall:
    :bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall:
    :castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_wall::castle_wall::bridge::castle_bg::door::castle_bg::door::castle_bg::door::castle_bg::door::castle_bg::door:
    :dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::bridge::castle_bg::bridge::castle_bg::bridge::castle_bg::bridge::castle_bg::bridge::castle_bg:
    :dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::castle_bg::castle_bg::castle_bg::castle_bg::castle_bg::castle_bg::castle_bg::castle_bg::castle_bg:
    :dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::bridge::castle_bg::bridge::castle_bg::bridge::castle_bg::bridge::castle_bg::spikes:
    :dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::spikes::castle_bg::castle_bg::castle_bg::castle_bg::castle_bg::castle_bg::spikes:
    :dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::spikes::castle_bg::bridge::castle_bg::bridge::castle_bg::bridge::castle_wall:
    :dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::dirt::spikes::dirt::spikes::castle_wall::castle_wall:

    *upward facing plats, simply to stop drill. This is one of the, if not the weakest point other than the archer tower which should be well defended and is replaceable.
    :gold_b: = archer shop
    :spikes: = stone with spikes in it (this was taken from a screenshot so it's not ideal but yeah)

    This is pattern is the best imo, resists drilling, fire arrow, and it's surprisingly easy to set up. Of course this isn't ideal but the pattern is what I'm trying to showcase.

    After some thought I would propose the following changes:
    All classes able to use drill still
    Drill breaks through 6 Stone Blocks before overheating (down from 17)
    Drill breaks through 17 Wood Blocks before overheating (down from 22)
    Cost raised to 150 stone and 100 wood
    Drill takes up 2 inventory spaces
    Drill does no backwall damage, or if possible, a lot less than it currently does (leave it to builders and explosives)

    Getting through wood doesn't seem to be a problem because you could just fire arrow anyways for mass wood block spam.

    This will make it so that their only purpose is sapping, or a very expensive and risky sabotage.

    The only people that would call it OP then are people who wont know about the platforms having so much resistance. Perhaps adding some tidbit to the platform description that lets people know that it resists drilling. For example, some noob who puts 3 layers of stone over the flag instead of stone/plat/stone.
     
    Dargona1018 likes this.
  18. Dargona1018

    Dargona1018 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    569
    I truly think this whole thread and poll is the worst way to get around to this problem.

    I mean, there will be some people who will just say "Yes" for the sake of saying Yes!
    And most of the tremendously good points came out AFTER there were ALREADY over 8 votes for yes and about 3 for no (from what I remember seeing when I voted no).

    I truly think that the poll should be considered invalid, defunct, and unusable.
    The data from a raw Yes or No is a ludicrous assumption of those who wish for it to be only builder or not.
    The whole conversation would probably turn at least 2 Yes's into No's, but they can't. Some people would then not know which to choose, and would abstain, or take their answer to the poll off of the list.


    I really hope that Geti actually thinks about what I have said above, and chooses to open up a separate Official thread (no poll attached), and then look over all of the responses, at least read some instead of skimming, and then decide from there.

    After all, ever since one trap would come up, people would find a way around them. Drills are the same way. Platforms need to truly become needed.

    EDIT: I agree with what you are saying about bringing the amount of blocks a drill can get through without overheating, @Corpsey .
     
  19. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    Re: I hope you actually think before doing this -

    I personally don't see drills as "OP" or even nearing it, I'm just giving the community a chance to make a decision about something which has only minor effects on the meta at large and is a minor code change from me. There are much larger changes coming next build which will disrupt everything to a much larger extent; meaning that it's probably as good a time as any to toss this change on the top and see where the balance goes - if it really sucks then we can always revert it just as easily.

    Re: Instead of skimming - wow guy, you kidding? I've read every response in full here and every other thread I've asked a question, even if in this thread I've already heard every point at least once before (including some guy telling Ej to learn play on bomb when Ej's more experienced than almost all of the rest of you).
     
    SirDangalang likes this.
  20. Dargona1018

    Dargona1018 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    569
    Sorry if I offended you in some way, I just don't know you as a person or a Developer. Most developers don't have time to truly read things, so I always assume the worst. I didn't mean to come off as a jerk or anything by saying that, so I apologize if I did.
     
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