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Game is dying

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Leo, May 11, 2015.

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  1. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    3,730
    Server logging fuck-ups. It's not exactly a high priority task for us, just things to see a general trend. 2015 has indeed been sparser, and we're not denying that the player base is small, but I've grown almost deaf to "game is dying" - if it dies, it dies.
     
  2. DatNobby

    DatNobby Bison Rider

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    157
    In theory, if we can have an endless supply of steam sales, the game shall be trapped in a loop of a huge boost and slow decline forever
    this is the true way
    seduce people into buying the game when it's cheap as shit
     
    DragonShark and Chukka like this.
  3. MadRaccoon

    MadRaccoon Bison Rider

    Messages:
    274
    I play the game for like...2 years..I think. And I never got bored, because this comunity makes KAG a difrent game every single day, if it is by all the mods or the hilarious circuntances on vanilla, KAG is the only one of its kind and I'll be playing it till the game (or myself) die. Wich will never happen becuz Im frekin immortal. And for the ones who say the game is decaying - gtfo, because youre not enjoying it anymore and stop occupying server slots, since pple are paying for actual players to use it.
     
    SirDangalang likes this.
  4. thebonesauce

    thebonesauce All life begins and ends with Nu Staff Alumni
    1. MOLEing Over Large Estates - [MOLE]
    2. The Ivory Tower of Grammar-Nazis

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    So let me see if I got this straight...

    You come onto the forums and claim that a game is dying. I've seen you saying shit like that multiple times over the past few months. Someone points out that you're being a whiny bitch about everything, and you start getting all Rodney King indignant on everyone.

    So in summary, you make a thread about something stupid, you're an antagonizing dick to anyone who disagrees, and when people call you out you cry for someone to lock the thread.

    PS:
    Are you really using the tired old, "don't like it, don't watch/look/read it," defense? You gotta realize that the internet isn't a fucking garbage dump. You are putting your thoughts out there, in the public eye, not as a private message to a friend or something... As such, your posts are subject to criticism and scrutiny. You can't just dump your shit in front of everyone and expect everyone to accept it, just as you can't take a shit on someone's living room carpet and expect them to clean it up.
     
  5. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,274
    No, Leo has full right to being irritated that his servers arent filling up; he fucking pays for them. This game consistently dies down after a sale and drops to its usual 80-150 playerbase. You do not seem to understand; it isnt whiny or stupid to wonder how a game that sold 180k copies can have this playerbase. I do not know if you remember, but this game has been in the humble bundle, had a steam sale, and even had a gog release. After all of this, the playerbase has spiked and fell to its usual. It isnt complaining to wonder if this game is worth the effort.
    Also, I do believe it is worth saying: You do not even play kag release.

    (OMFG I HAD TO REWRITE THAT SO MANY TIMES SO I WOULDN'T END UP WITH WARNING POINTS FOR FLAMING UGH)
     
  6. TheDirtySwine

    TheDirtySwine Bison Rider Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    818
    At first I was going to disagree with punk, but his post gave me new insight. I hope that they give Trench run more care than they've given KAG because 180k sales and less than 200 active players per day is just sad. The game is fantastic in many ways no doubt but the small problems that could've been fixed would've greatly improved the number of players that would still be playing. Please learn from your mistakes and make trench run a kick ass game.
     
    PUNK123 likes this.
  7. Mazey

    Mazey Haxor Global Moderator Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    1,912
    Uh punk it's not like leo has to pay for his servers, everyone has the right to be irritated at anything but it doesn't make sense for him to be irritated at the game dying. It's his choice to pay money for servers, for servers in a dying/small community game

    Being a game developer doesn't mean you HAVE to keep updating a game you started making 4 years ago, and PR like shit to get more people

    "zomg TBS u dont play video gaem"
    It's not like Leo actively plays the game. He rarely plays and not even for long
     
    thebonesauce, Blue_Tiger and RampageX like this.
  8. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    "less than 200 active players per day" is off by an order of magnitude, check the graph on this page and last.

    [Vague, reasonably long rant that might get written up into a blog post at some point, not directed at anyone in particular:]

    I'm kinda disappointed that some of you guys think it's a matter of care from us that KAG has retention issues - we don't have a team of 30-100 devs and a million dollar budget to throw at a game; if there's a "small bug" that'd take "minutes to fix" it's "minutes" (hours to days usually based on how tangled the code is) that come directly out of something else. We also don't have a community that's exactly friendly to newcomers.
    I definitely agree that there are, and always have been player retention issues, but I feel like the things we could have "done better" on KAG in that respect are things that need a lot of background work, or things that we're very resistant towards adding - achievements, player "experience points", unlockables, cosmetics, ladder play, demo recording, modding. We (unfortunately?) chose to pursue the modding aspect out of those because we'd seen it have great success with the longevity of a handful of other indie games, but unfortunately have not seen that success in KAG, at least not yet. It's been very nice seeing more and more modded servers creep into the first page of servers the past few months or so.

    In Trench run we're looking to go a different way with things;
    • focusing on community building (creating spaces that are purely non-competitive that people have to go through)
    • creating a lot of counter play with the classes (so that hardcore players have real tactical decisions to make) but
    • keeping the classes simple (so that casual players can pick up the game and contribute/have fun sooner rather than never)
    • fast turnaround rather than big time investments with match length (so johny98 doesn't have to spend an hour figuring out how everything works together, or more likely holding WD, dying 10 times then quitting)
    • focussing on doing few things well rather than everything "ok" (you're not going to see 5 modes with grossly different focusses in the game, though there will be a tick/tock playful/serious element to play if things go the way we have planned)
    • pulling all the 'extra unlockable stuff' out of the game and into the community sphere... that is, hopefully - it still requires more infrastructure work than people think to get (for example) per-account money working at a scalable and vaguely secure level, and requires us taking a more proactive stance towards hosting (because we can't have "coin farming" servers popping up if we do have a system like that).
    We're also honestly not prioritising modding at all (the engine still allows it, but we're not building in configurability into scripts where it doesn't benefit us directly), which is allowing us to move forward at a better pace and scrap stuff when it needs scrapping (looking at you builderlogic.as). It helps that we dont have a big legacy to clean up or maintain (yet), and that we're before any large official launch means we can "break" stuff if we need to.

    Hopefully this is the right path to take with the game; I'm honestly not sold that a lot of the mechanics i see tossed around for retention (exp/levelling, unlockables, in-game economies, payable cosmetics, modding) etc work if you dont have a huge playerbase and a solid game from the get-go, and a lot of them require content bloat to be meaningful to the kind of people who like them (an unlockables system isn't fun if there's 2 unlockables, cosmetics aren't fun if they dont line up with your diverse tastes, levelling is meaningless if it doesn't make stuff happen) or create content bloat in other ways (modding). I'm happy to take feedback and field your thoughts on this of course :)

    I'm sure Leo will feel that the game would have 200% of the playerbase at least without the APIClient crash though, haha.



    Re: "this game has been in the humble bundle" "been on gog" "steam sale" - numbers wise, the only one of those that mattered was the steam sale. The humble bundle we were in was a weekly, not the big promoted monthly (?) one, and gog was a quick spike of money like going on sale but seems to have a much steeper tail than steam. Bundle players don't stick around - so in effect they're free money for us (no server stress increase, hardly any support cost), but nothing substantial for the playerbase most of the time, which is depressing. Steam sales likewise attract a lot of "game curators" - people with hundreds or thousands of games in their libraries and less than five hours on most of them; we do get a spike of actual players around the sale date, but only so many of them truly "convert" into long time players. We're honestly not sure yet of the best way to approach that side of things other than having something that grabs people quickly and forever, and KAG is hit and miss with that (I've had people say it was love since first spawn, and others who never say anything, walk out of tent, die a few times and then close it forever).
     
    johny98, Blue_Tiger, DatNobby and 7 others like this.
  9. Leo

    Leo Bison Rider

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    503
    So much hate against someone that for almost 2 years now has spent a LOT of time and money to provide this community with top quality servers. My last word on this is that when I started my servers there was an average of around 300 players playing at any given time. How many are there now ? I am thinkin of shutting down my servers and go on with my life. So long and thanks for all the fish. Leo signing out.
     
  10. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,274
    Kinda just me responding to condescension from the person i quoted/ explaining that the playerbase has fluctuated in the past
    Caring about something is a legitimate reason for being upset.
     
    FuzzyBlueBaron and Fuzzle like this.
  11. tru0067

    tru0067 Ballista Bolt Thrower Tester

    Messages:
    165
    The one thing that I can definitely recommend that would increase player retention is a better tutorial (perhaps several that teach different things: basics, items, advanced combat, building etc.). I played the tutorial when I first started playing and it really isn't that helpful imo. The only reason that I had any idea wtf was going on at all when I first started was because I had a friend who explained everything to me. It's a big turn off to not know what is happening, why you are dying etc. and imo that's why people stop playing. The combat and strategies in KAG while fundamentally based on simple stuff is incredibly complex and new players coming onto a server just have no idea what is happening.

    EDIT: This should probably have gone in the player retention thread but that issue seemed to come up here so....
     
    8x likes this.
  12. Fellere825

    Fellere825 KAG Guard Tester

    Messages:
    890
    This reminds me of this conversation I had the other day with someone. I don't really remember who it was I was kind of exhausted and was lacking some sleep or something. I don't really remember. Well the conversation started with how we could resurrect KAG. We talked about many feasible things but we both agreed upon two actions that could guarantee instant results.

    We could get Geti to sell his soul or chop off his hair and then sacrifice it to MM on an alter on the night of the new moon. Honestly the two are so similar it might as well be the same thing. We could probably get about a good hundred or so more people willing to play the game if Geti sells his soul. I hear that you can sell souls on the internet nowadays.

    Anyways if Geti sacrificed his hair to MM I think that would give MM enough reason to add achievements or something. It's about motivation really. MM being the business man he is he needs at least three kilos of Geti's hair before he is satisfied. So after this conversation with this person I contacted Geti and proposed this magical solution.

    I was talking with Geti and he was telling me how he was planning on shaving his whole body down and covering himself with some hair growth shampoo so that he can get a fresh start. He went on this whole tangent about how it was necessary to shave because it's like farming or something and the new crop needed all the nutrients or something to grow. At this point I figured Geti had too much tofu or was going into protein withdrawals or something. He was acting a little off. I think he was anxious or something as he was not yet ready to shave.

    So anyways I spent the next hour or two trying to convince Geti that maybe shaving was not the way to go. Shearing seemed like the best option in my mind at the time as sheep are sheared not shaved. Geti seemed to agree with my assessment and told me he would be back and he had to buy some shears or something. At this point I was so tired I don't even remember what else was said. But that is besides the point.

    The person I was talking to said that the point is is that Geti needs to sacrifice his hair or his soul to resurrect KAG. Who cares if he has manic depression or loses his soul. As long as KAG is alive again any loss of Geti's well being is justified. I disagreed with him but it ended up being for naught as he was dead set in his ways of forcing Geti to pursue the dark arts for his own enjoyment. I ended up telling Geti later that Chobani was a shitty Greek yogurt and that maybe selling his soul was the better option of the two. We agreed that shaving his hair was not the best course of action and all we are waiting for now is a buyer for Geti's soul. I agreed to be the witness for transaction during the ritual only if Geti stopped eating Chobani.
     
    thebonesauce, Kububv, Geti and 11 others like this.
  13. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    2,508
    Wow. You guys. Just...

    doge1.png

    Don't know if you'll read this but, if you're actually done, then please allow me to be the first to say: nou!

    Thank you for all the fish that BD provided over the years, Leo. Thank you for the care and contributions you've given this screw-ball community over the last 2+ years. While I don't think I've agreed with you on everything over the years, I'm sorry that things had to end this way and wish I'd worked harder/been more successful in my attempts to alleviate the harshness that often manifests in this (often wonderful, often terrible, always completely screw-ball) community. ::(:

    I hope that you're not really gone, and that if you are that I'll still cross paths with you occasionally. Peace. :heart:
     
  14. thebonesauce

    thebonesauce All life begins and ends with Nu Staff Alumni
    1. MOLEing Over Large Estates - [MOLE]
    2. The Ivory Tower of Grammar-Nazis

    Messages:
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    Dude, relax. Leo is absolutely allowed to voice his opinion, but so am I. I'm not referring to Leo's servers, and neither was he. He was referring to the fact that EVERY server is, "empty," and that the game is, "dead." I'm not insulting anyone, I'm just saying that the game is far from dead. And yes, I don't play the release version of KAG AT THE MOMENT, because the computer I have right now is a piece of shit and I can't run all that many games because it's an antiquated piece of shit.

    Who is hating on anyone? And who cares how long you've been in the community or spent money on things like servers? It was something YOU wanted to do, nobody forced you. I think you're being a little over dramatic now.
     
    DatNobby and Mazey like this.
  15. Jackard

    Jackard Base Burner

    Messages:
    852
    Nah stick with something long enough and you're totally allowed to say dumb things that nobody can call you out for. See: racist grandpas.
     
  16. Leo

    Leo Bison Rider

    Messages:
    503
    You guys don't get it. Two years back the average players in any given time was around 300, now it's 70-80. Next year it will be maybe 50 or less, then one morning you will see 0 players online and then you'll remember my words. But it will be too late. You think that games never die ? Well they do. And a few dedicated players from forums can't save it, ask soldat players for that.
     
    PinXviiN, PUNK123 and Asu like this.
  17. DragonShark

    DragonShark The one post after the other. Donator

    Messages:
    390
    I don't get how this game is dying. The community is really nice and almost always people to play with. I have bought games who had almost none players playing it. THAT'S dead, not this. This game is so addictive that players can't let it down. The problem I think is is that this game is not beginner friendly. The most people jump right into multiplayer and start jab spamming. For example I bought this game for a friend once but he found it way too difficult. I am happy that they are starting a KAG training campaign of some sort. That will probably help some people out. But yea if you just come onto the server there's mostly one experienced knight who will probably kill you 7 times in a row when you're new.

    EDIT: If you guys make it more new player friendly (in multiplayer) take my advice and start spamming sales. There are many players looking for cheap games and will buy KAG.
    For example. I think this peak:
    [​IMG]
    Was from a sale.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2015
  18. daed gaem

    give up already devs, this game is a dead end that wont achieve anything not even a golden joystick wtf ur studio goin to nowhere, gaming is dead

    also fucking lol@how Geti says "yeah there has been a very slow decline in playerbase so what?" and the response from OP is "YOU GUYS DONT SEE IT, LESS PLAYERS HAVE BEEN PLAYING THAN 2 YEARS AGO" like cmon dude you know better than that
     
  19. Jackard

    Jackard Base Burner

    Messages:
    852
    Yea so what's your point? Nothing keeps that momentum forever. How old are you? Is this the first game you've had die on you?
     
  20. DragonShark

    DragonShark The one post after the other. Donator

    Messages:
    390
    I think he's just mad because his servers won't get players no more if it will be really dead.

    it won't go dead though.
     
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