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General kag changes

Discussion in 'Classes & Mechanics' started by PUNK123, Sep 8, 2015.

  1. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

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    1,277
    What about all those lovely rage-saving possible changes like boulders being able to be walked thru by teammates, things not being damaged in your hands, bomb arrows not eating thru things behind blocks(doors and platforms(unless that is a feature inwhich case why)). Personally i feel like portable explosive bolts(bomb arrows) needs a complete rework that wont make archers salty; probably nerfing its 3 block destructing bs, destroying things behind the blocks they hit, and lowering its cost to 30 coins per. Also any response to explosives harming dirt or, in a perfect world, adding more ease of access for things like drills and mines(taking them out with space).
     
  2. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    Explosives already deliberately dont "finish off" dirt to help prevent erosion. I wouldn't want them to do no harm at all but I would also not mind them not being able to do more than scratch the surface.

    Bomb arrows aren't likely to change, sorry.

    Every explosive destroys stuff behind the blocks they destroy.

    Boulders being able to be walked through in general could be good but there's not a "nice" way to do it, and I'm not much of a fan of particularly selective collisions.

    Platforms/doors "eating" explosions is a result of the raycasting code - its either they're totally permeable or explosions inside them get muffled. I find the emergent "bomb-safe floors" aspect interesting, if not intuitive. Could make it at least insta-kill the platform I guess so they don't "eat" 100s of coins worth of items.

    Note: We're "down" on interns at the moment (school, life troubles, general disengagement) so progress on anything KAG-side is pretty slow.
     
  3. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

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    1,277
    No, you are wrong. Bombs and Bomb bolts do not damage platforms behind a solid block, or atleast they do not insta-gib/have anywhere near the destructive power of bomb arrows
    I have no idea what point you are trying to make. What is a bomb-safe floor, and what 100s of coins worth of items.

    Sorry to hear about having no interns but tbh bomb arrows need to be eventually be fixed. having something that you can use to just cancerously eat thru the enemy is never a good thing(i frequently find myself with 300+ coins and then i just decide to setup the archershop spam area and gg).


    EDIT: i think you're misunderstanding my issue, i do not like bomb arrows as they are and i think that them eating platforms that are BEHIND a block is the problem. Them being shut down by a reversed platform does insta-kill the platform it hits and isnt the issue. There shouldnt be any item ingame you can use without any setup that will trash the enemy like bomb arrows do. Making changes similar to what kedram suggested 9 months ago and stoping the "eating" that bomb arrows do would be a great change imho. Or we can wait 3-6 months until the general opinion of the playerbase is that the mechanic is cancer, but that would be stupid. Eventually things should be realized and changed faster, it took forever to fix boulders, ballistaes, ect. Lets not waste more time allowing abusive bomb arrow spam(not that i dont do it aswell ;D). ATM the only true way to survive a bomb arrow onslaught is either to have hella layers or to build a repairable "module" you can hide behind ie:

    :castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall:
    :castle_wall::castle_bg::door:
    :castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall:
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2016
  4. Mazey

    Mazey Haxor Global Moderator Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    1,916
    Isn't Skinney working on a fix for unwanted behavior of blob blocks (fake/not hardcoded tiles) to make them function like normal blocks? That should come eventually.
     
  5. 8x

    8x Elimination Et Choix Traduisant la Realité Forum Moderator Tester Official Server Admin
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    1,314
    Regarding carrying weights, when a knight carries a crate or a sawmill he has some advantage, as he can be charing slashes or jabbing with no visual clue for the defender. I can imagine something like slowing them down when carrying those items, but that would be a killer for knighting, perhaps putting the crate/sawmill at his back could do it.
     
  6. an_obamanation

    an_obamanation The boss Donator

    Messages:
    392
    Would the saw be programmed to instakill on top of the knight still or at his back where the sprite is? As that is the problem with putting it on his back, crates? Crates would be perfect on a knights back but sawmills would cause lot's of confusion, and would increase the number of accidental deaths by those carrying saws. Also I feel like the throwing of said items would look awkward.

    "Well then what's your idea mr. perfect Terri the all knowing god of saw and crate carrying?" Well I don't really know, it's rather complicated. But i'd say have the knight carry the crate/saw above his head with one arm, then remove slashing and jabbing but keep shielding. That's the only way I can see it without it being confusing or looking stupid.

    Unless the saw automatically turned itself off as a knight was carrying it, I see no way of having it on his back without leading to many teamkill incidents and confusion. (If this is what you meant by carrying it on their back, OOPS.)
     
  7. ParaLogia

    ParaLogia tired Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    1,133
    I think you're over-thinking this. It would be exactly the same as carrying a saw now (it doesn't kill things), except the sprite would be moved to your back. Just like kegs were moved to the back. There is no other gameplay effect.
     
    PUNK123 likes this.
  8. Psiklaw

    Psiklaw Ballista Bolt Thrower

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    179
    punk is there a way to please you forever?
     
    AmestriStephen and 4zK like this.
  9. an_obamanation

    an_obamanation The boss Donator

    Messages:
    392
    If a person is carrying a saw and you jump onto the saw, you get killed and the saw automatically turns off. But the saw still kills you. I could be overthinking the way that the saw is carried though, I would need to see a sprite of what the intentions are. For example, if it's (Blade up) like the saws usually are, and it's just move to the back like a keg, then fuck no. If it's (Blade to the left) then teammates can run into it and enemies have a much harder time chasing you, so fuck no. Ifi t's (Blade downwards) ehhh, Less likely to kill people and doesn't show animations but you can jump on your teammates and kill them, which is bad, so fuck no. If it's (Blade to the right that makes no fucking sense) and if it's turned on as soon as you start carrying it, then that's great no matter where the blade is :D

    EDIT: However, if it turns out that every death i've suffed from saws being like that turns out to be my team throwing the saw up at me, then sorry, but otherwise I swear I remember carrying saws allow you to kill your team members who jump on you.
     
  10. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

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    1,277
    Under thinking******. the saw doesnt instakilling when it is in someone's hands, they have to release it. Please test things if you dont understand them.
     
  11. an_obamanation

    an_obamanation The boss Donator

    Messages:
    392
    I went and did and found it out. My apologies, I just didn't know.

    EDIT: I guess all those times I died were by them dropping the saw or throwing it, I never knew that before, i've always been so paranoid carrying a saw because of that shit, this completely changes my saw trap design now! :D
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2016
    PUNK123 likes this.
  12. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    3,730
    that would have been a good start and end to a response, fwiw. Continuing a discussion from a known misunderstanding is a pretty fast way to confusion and derailment.

    You completely misunderstand.
    [​IMG]
    builder is still harmed in this situation.
    [​IMG]
    shop is still destroyed in this situation.

    Bombs and other explosives damage stuff behind the walls that they destroy.

    Platforms in general are incredibly resistant to explosions other than bomb arrows, they are a special case.

    [​IMG]
    Platforms arranged on the ground like this "eat" bombs, and also make things un-pickable. It's a pain.
    re: bomb arrows-
    [​IMG]
    backwards plats eat a bomb arrow in exchange for one platform. That point is then weaker but it stops a single bomb arrow and requires 2 to do any real damage (and can be stacked easily enough). Is this not flag-case and front-wall meta outside of AU or something?

    Doesn't work that easily unless team is unattentive and lets a 2hp rambo into and out of their flag room; hence ballista spam, not bomb arrow spam being the previous and current "gg" meta-play.

    Don't get me wrong, I know it's strong and allows one player quite a lot of agency in finishing a game quickly, particularly if there's some big forward melee that you manage to slip past - but I honestly don't see it as such a big problem. I haven't heard any solution to this issue that isn't "make bomb arrows way less powerful and then halve the price lol", which is unsatisfying and reduces variation in the content of the game.


    Skinney is "indefinitely unable to work on KAG" at the moment due to life stuff.

    Honestly I'm half-considering finally implementing a proper "input block" system for carried items, so you couldn't slash at all while carrying anything bigger than a bomb (could still shield). Would be a neat way to ban archers from grappling when carrying heavy shit as well.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
    Psiklaw and PUNK123 like this.
  13. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,277
    For the first part, i was confused on what you meant/ what it had to do with my issue. Obviously i dont have an issue with explosives damaging things behind a 1 block thick wall, but just crushing all doors/ platforms(behind solid blocks) isnt likable imo. My issue is bomb arrows just disintegrating the non-solid blocks, not damaging players behind blocks. As for the ground platform things i guess they are pretty bad, tho i havent seen it abused ingame/ it hasnt affected me so i cant comment. As for the "2hp rambo" comment, i never use it that way, i spam the bomb arrows from 10-15 blocks away quickly(usually between 200-400 coins worth) until we cancerize their defense and they are forced to lose. Which is trash you shouldnt be able to buy a win like that imo. I personally feel like bomb arrows are stronger because you can do it without any setup and really catch them off guard, and it takes less time to lay down the destruction. As for the "make bomb arrows way less powerful and then halve the price lol" generalization of my opinion, i feel like it is a needed fix to an unfair mechanic. If you limit its 3 block hitbox then you wont have the gg spam into the front of the flagroom. If you remove the eating it does to the non-solid blocks then you can have actual forward defense building(instead of losing your forward tower to a bomb arrow insta crush). I mean i guess they are pretty huge nerfs but obviously the arrow would still be the strongest at 3o coins per, 2-3 hp per hit(not sure which it actually deals), and the range.

    for the "input block" thing, i guess it sounds cool but i mean you can still slash with a drill/tramp were those suppose to be fixed in this way? Also it would be glorious if things in your hands stopped being effected by bs(explosions from bomb arrows, kegs, being mined, ect).


    EDIT: about the backward platforms, is the whole issue that knight bombs dont damage thru them? If they faced the otherway the effects wouldnt be that much different for bomb arrows(except maybe it would take out 3 plats instead of 1).
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
  14. 8x

    8x Elimination Et Choix Traduisant la Realité Forum Moderator Tester Official Server Admin
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

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    1,314
    Hey, those are great paint drawings, punk you should be grateful. It reminds me of old Dos games, that feel.
    It's used in eu, but it's less common to see tthan frontwards plats.
     
  15. Gofio

    Gofio Gunwobbler x3

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    1,090
    Hmm, that's a shame. Wouldn't it be possible to affect the rate of absorption though? Like... make water that's far away from the sponge affect it's "fullness" less than water that's right next to it?
    Then a sponge would just either be a 10-second air pocket or a 3-second drainage tool, depending on whether you move while using it or not.

    I just really like sponges ;-;
     
  16. Hospitalizer

    Hospitalizer Shopkeep Stealer

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    57
    I certainly have an issue with explosives damaging me behind a 1 block thick wall:rektlord:
    Any way the boulder could really use its ability to damage doors again:B): and the saw When Loaded Into The catapult should still kill people when they jump into it from above
     
    daskew87 likes this.
  17. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    @Gofio - not really, not without it absorbing water "randomly" in that range or something. If you think about it, the sponge wont absorb stuff from outside that range - whatever is the maximum will be the first thing to touch the water. There's no "partial absorption" that can be done with solid water tiles. Could potentially do some sort of per-tile counter thing but it'd be fiddly and unclear.

    @Hospitalizer - boulder ramming was a source of too much rage, especially with it shredding 50 stone doors. Cata-saw combo could be interesting/hilarious though, what's the perceived use case?

    @8x good to know

    @PUNK123 same investment in ballista would have the same outcome, but I see the appeal of doing it as an archer. I don't agree that a huge bomb arrow nerf is the way to go though, and I don't see any community consensus on it.
     
  18. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

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    1,277
    Eh enough of trying to fix broken things in kag lets just make it less irritating, why cant we get ressuplies without empty our inventory it is literally the worst thing ever. I dont want to hear any of that B.S about how it encourages afk because you can pretty easily kick those people. Also it basically discourages any actual resource gathering as you wait for the resupply(because if you gather stone and wood you would have to drop them to get the resupply because only 1 thing in hands).
     
  19. Gofio

    Gofio Gunwobbler x3

    Messages:
    1,090
    The saw in a catapult is useful because you can't remove or deactivate the saw if you don't own the catapult, and the only way to own it is to get close to it... which you can't because of the saw.
    The catapult also absorbs a lot of damage so your saw will effectively be immune to bombs.
     
  20. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

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    1,277
    Define huge. I think something needs to be done to make it less totally bullcrap. I mean i guess ill just have to wait til it becomes cancer like when people were begging for ballista changes 9 months ago. More questions i get when playing kag: is placing backwall behind spikes suppose to make it harder to target the spikes themselves? I mean i kinda understand why they do because actual spike traps would benefit but not really because they are easier to break immediately after they pop out(the spikes). I just feel like removing cancer spikes are more irritating that it should have to be.
    Also what is the aoe a bomb arrow. I just dont know that one.