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General kag changes

Discussion in 'Classes & Mechanics' started by PUNK123, Sep 8, 2015.

  1. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    Gonna be short as I've got other stuff to do this morning;

    Resupply - basically the AFK/farming reason. I kind of feel that resupply should be moved into its own building which could deliberately be used for farming (spawn mats over time, put in coins for burst production for 30s or something), instead of resupply at various other shops "for free". As you say, it discourages collecting mats, but I think it would even more if you could resupply with any amount of inventory.

    Backwall and spikes: no, it's not meant to be annoying, the builder hit code is just a nightmare for a mixture of "technical problem" and "real problem" reasons. Spikes en masse are best removed with a keg or mine explosion.

    Bomb arrow damage radius: 48 units, 6 tiles. Half of that is higher dmg. Map damage radius is separate.
     
    Psiklaw likes this.
  2. an_obamanation

    an_obamanation The boss Donator

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    It doesn't ENTIRELY discourage resource gathering, but that's if you do what I do and put a storage cache right next to the tent. That way you can put resupplies into the cache before you go gather resources, and put your gathered resources into the storage cache right before grabbing your resupply mats, but it would be better to just have it pop into your inventory regardless of you having more mats than the resupply would grant.
    That idea sounds lovely. I hate it when it's build time and I want to store my small amount of mats before I resupply, but some person puts a builder shop in the way of the storage cache. So i'm forced to resupply everytime. I think the tents should still resupply though if this system was implemented, it would lead to less super early gg's from those who decided not to gather mats, or on maps where tree farms are hard to setup at the beginning or mats are scarce at the beginning.

    Also I know nothing about programming or anything about this issue but, I do know that resupplies (as well as bought items from shops) will spawn on top of your head and (Supposedly) you automatically pick them up. But i've been in countless games where when I spawn in as builder, my mats are still on the ground. When I buy bombs and a keg as a knight, it just drops to the floor for some reason. I don't know how it'd be done or if it could be done but I'd like to see these things just pop right up in your inventory, instead of just popping up above you and potentially not being received.

    Speaking of early game, I also think that every player on a team should be turned into a builder automatically when a new ctf game starts up. Again, no idea if this is possible or how it'd be done as i'm not a programming guy but if it was feasible this'd be a great thing. So many times I have spawned as an archer on accident and when I switch to builder at spawn I don't receive my materials. And when mats decide to not pop into players inventories and I try to pick the mats up for them, there's a bunch of arrow clusters in the mix too. Because players spawn as archers and their arrows don't go into their inventory so they just plop onto the ground in the mix of all the useful mats. It wastes precious building time going through the arrows and could also waste inventory space if you accidentally put one in your inventory without realizing. Of course this issue'd be completely fine though if your resupply and spawning mats/arrows just went straight into your inventory instead of right above your head other than for the fact that if you spawned as an archer no builder mats for you, but that's about it. Just a little rant of mine
    Btw i'm very tired as of writing this ;-;
     
  3. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    They actually are put directly into your hand or inventory where possible; the "res on ground at start of game" thing (iirc) is either you swapping to builder when you already were builder(-> your old blob is destroyed and your res drop to ground), or a forced-respawn arriving a few ticks after the start of the match, again destroying your old blob and dropping its res.

    Here's how it works with bombs and anything else that can go directly into your inventory
    [​IMG]
    Here's it with mines, which go into your hands
    [​IMG]
    However, if you do it with kegs or something else that wont go in your inventory, it'll fall to the ground if there's not room in your hands. Same with anything else if your inventory is already full.

    Swapping everyone to builder in build time could be done, but would rub a few folks the wrong way I think; could have a "rush prep time" where the classes opened up for 30s before the game started, but I can just imagine the anger when people who "dont want to build" get forced to be builder upon the match starting. I'd kinda rather they be useless than waste people's time pissing vinegar at the start of each match, but it's a fair point to want it to go the other way.
     
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  4. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

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    implying i spend the majority of my time at spawn. Making me go all the way back there to resupply was literally the worst thing ever. But ofc you're just talking about build time and im talking about resupplies in general.
    What, why? then you wouldnt be punished for collecting a large amount of resources
    beforehand.
    I used to want this but then i realized how literally useless 9/10 pubbies are. I'd rather have more afk knights than have to deal with players who want to lecture me on their conservative "no wood" policies
     
  5. an_obamanation

    an_obamanation The boss Donator

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    I don't know why then that sometimes they just refuse to go into my empty inventory. It happens with bombs, kegs, mines, pretty much anything. Could be a bug I suppose? It doesn't happen often but it's not a rare occurrence either, it's somewhat common (at least for me.).

    With the builder thing it'd really piss off veterans and could encourage false kicks I mean uhhhh, "fair" kicks. Because players aren't allowed to be new to the game or unskilled. Fuck learning, we're all experts in the first 5 hours. I think it'd be more for noobies. Helps encourage them to learn that there are multiple classes, learn how to change and to learn productive building. It would need a very specific addition to piss off the least amount of people possible.

    Very rarely i'll put a storage cache and builders shop very close to the flag, but generally it's my thing to put shops right at spawn first. Only rarely on specific maps will I move them forward, otherwise i'm just making walls up front and blocking enemy doors the rest of the match. I should really try perfecting a storage cache, builder shop combo near the flag though, could be really useful :D
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2016
  6. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

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    More than 1 storage cache is a waste of res ill never do it. I cant see a situation where ill need 100 wood and 30 stone enough to waste space by the flagroom and waste res for building the shop. I do put a buildershop on top of the flagroom though. Never lost a game because of it just like ive never lost a game because of my platform/doors in the flagroom. If we lose we lose. They shouldnt be on our base for any period of time imo
     
  7. Gofio

    Gofio Gunwobbler x3

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    Having a quick restock at the flag can be useful if you make good use of it. Having a restock nearby makes those maintenance walls very powerful.
    :castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall:
    :door::castle_bg::castle_wall:
    :castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall:
    :castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall:
    :door::castle_bg::castle_wall:
    :castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall:
    (like this)
     
  8. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

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    I already know and do that(i linked the same thing in this thread), but i dont see the point of stockpiles by the flagroom.

    also @Geti what are your thoughts on bs involving tunnels(someone mining the corner from behind blocks). Granted all destruction by builders are bs(you can dmg enemy thru your doors if they stand in the "corner") and i know they cant be fixed but id still like to know your thoughts. If you havent seen it done then i could go find the link for it. And yes after playing a game of kag i realize why boulders shouldnt buffed in catapults, it is to easy to use them defensively and spam thru the enemies at mid and any buff would make it even more cancer(ie if it just crushed all the blocks built at mid).
     
  9. an_obamanation

    an_obamanation The boss Donator

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    Didn't say that I built two. Said that I rarely put my storage cache up front with a builder shop instead of near spawn. I always build only one. Two is definitely a huge waste of resources unless you have somebody grinding a huge tree farm the entire match.

    Also @Geti I finally got screenshots of what I was talking about (Spawning with no mats in your inventory and them on the ground.) It's in these screenshots I managed to snag at the beginning of a FUN ctf match. (No, it's not the mod's fault.)

     
  10. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    I know what you're talking about, see here:
    They don't go in immediately because they're tagged as if you dropped em. If you move off and back on after some seconds they should be picked up again (but could be that their "recently dropped" timer gets set to some huge value). Possible fix would be to have no resupplies at all in the first 1-5 seconds of the game.

    It's BS, but unlikely to change. I wish I had a week to spend on just builder interactions but it's extremely hard to justify - it's all "working" now, and I've got other things to work on.

    Also as I've said multiple times, no need to tag me in a thread I'm already a part of, especially after quoting me in the same post. I get enough notifications as it is. @PUNK123

    Sure, but you wouldn't have as much of an incentive to collect either if you knew you'd get them on top of whatever res you had left over. I imagine there'd be a section of the community who'd be happy to go afk for a few minutes at the start of the game and come back to 500 stone 2000 wood or whatever when the game starts.
     
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  11. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

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    It's called karma:wink: (see pg. 4). Anyway on to the topic. Can it be worked out where it doesnt go that high. Atm you can afk and do the same(lefty did it 1/2 the time but tbf he also played for 12 hrs a day), but couldnt you work it out to where it wont give you resources if you have say 100 stone and 300 wood? Like you have to have done something. Alternatively you could just remove it for build time and if anyone afks during the game they will most definitely get kicked.

    New list of things for me to whine about:
    • Fire arrows not immediately setting wooden objects on fire. At the very lease the arrow should damage the block to the point where it cant be converted to stone. Just seems bs to make a 15 coins arrow worthless.
    • I dont like that an archer can release faster than a knight can jab. Makes me salty to lose to an archer in close range where a knight should obviously dominate. Is there a difference between the stun of a jab and a full arrow? just seems like the arrow is more powerful/bs.
    • Would be nice if it was easier for a builder to smash a ladder. Kinda cheeky that knights can clear them better than builders.
    • remove knights slashing gold. In a perfect world they wouldnt harm any ore but at the very least we should be able to agree on this.
    • Anyway to stop collapses from destroying resources. I also think saplings get destroyed by collapses but im honestly not 100% on it.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2016
  12. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    Re: materials - possibly. If you'd looked at how complicated the current system looks in code you might be a little less keen to add more special cases though :)
    • Fire arrows behave differently for blob blocks and tiles; it's kind of an issue. Doing some immediate damage might be a possibility...
    • Stuns for jabs are turned down a lot due to whining about jab spammers. Full arrows do quite a serious stun. I dont think quarter-pull arrows do any stun though. You only lose if you're outplayed :)
    • Builders 1-hitting ladders makes working in a base with ladders v annoying (accidents happen), current sense is intentional and lets knights contribute to base "cancer spam" cleanup.
    • Knights griffing is no good but not sure if that'd mess up some maps?
    • Collapses might not be handled properly somewhere but I'm pretty sure they dont kill seeds.
     
  13. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

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    • Implying there is some way to not get out-played by a class that is inherently faster, has a quicker release, and can stun you from a 5-6 block distance away. I mean they damage you whenever you prepare any attack at all basically forcing you to clutch your shield until theyre done with their arrows and then you rush with ur shield grasping it for all your life only for you to somehow get in position to land a jab and then you get smacked by an arrow and they got for a run. Personally if i had it my way jabs wouldnt even stun when they connect with a shield. Leads to some gay bs in game tbh.
    • 1-hitting is not good alright then, but me trying to clean up base and work my lemmings to victory doesnt work if i had to hit a ladder 3 times and they coated the front wall with them.
    • alright
    • ill check that im not 100% about that one anyway. Yes it does not destroy seeds.
     
  14. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    Yeah yeah. People manage to kill archers, and any time you have them back-pedalling you are winning ground. Knights dont exist in a vacuum, bombs exist, and most of winning an engagement is timing and positioning. It is indeed hard to deal with a good archer, just as it's hard to deal with a good knight - the archer just has kiting potential, so easier to get frustrated about.

    Swap to knight for the 10 seconds of clean up. You're not locked into your class.
     
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  15. an_obamanation

    an_obamanation The boss Donator

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    Sure you're losing ground but this is if you're talking about CTF, if you play tdm (Like I used to) you're screwed. Archers can easily sit in trees, buy tons of special arrows, and overall draw matches to a COMPLETE stalemate or otherwise incredibly frustrating chase sequence that'll draw until close to the end of the match. I'd also like to believe that archers have much more maximum potential for skill than a knight does. I've seen amazing knights get crapped on by the average archer just because that archer has some knowledge on how stunning works. It gets to be incredibly annoying. I'd like some way for a knight to be able to catch an archer in an easier fashion, and i'd totally love to see some kind of timer implanted on trees in TDM matches that force archers out of them. Believe me when I say, one of the most frustrating things about TDM is smacking a tree to get to an archer and to have them just sit there until they jump to another tree. It results in 3 things happening, 1. Skip map. 2. Change to archer. 3. Suicide or go spectator. Otherwise on CTF I think archers are fine due to the losing ground thing, forces them not to camp (mostly...)
     
  16. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    I agree that archer has a higher skill ceiling. I don't agree that a good archer automatically beats a good knight - someone who gets "crapped on by an average archer just because that archer has some knowledge of how stunning works" is not a good knight. This is diverging a little from the topic though.

    I play quite a bit of TDM - archer "keepaway" does happen indeed, but its more a map problem than an archer problem. There are a few maps with inaccessible spots or lots of trees close together which facilitate it, and some of those dont have bombs available (which exacerbates it).

    I'm honestly not of the opinion that swapping to archer to deal with a camper is much of a problem though. I don't really understand the "fear" of multi-classing a lot of players have, I treat swapping class like changing weapons in an FPS - you can pick the most appropriate tool for the job, or you can stick with the guns you like and then complain when they aren't suitable for the situation.
     
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  17. an_obamanation

    an_obamanation The boss Donator

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    Generally the knights who do get crapped on in this manner are moving in to get the match done, or else they get tired of chasing the archer around and do anything in their power to desperately get a little slash in or jabs to maybe get a kill, otherwise they'd rather die than go on another 3 minutes of monotonous chase scenes, and while yes it is a map based thing more maps have this archer problem than don't. I guess it's a matter of patience really, which I certainly have none of (Possibly due to ADHD but I digress.).

    That analogy would work except for the fact that I've never been practically FORCED to use a specific weapon in 80% of the multiplayer games i've played just to be able to do anything. I'm a multi-classer myself and while I have no trouble playing as an archer I hate when I HAVE to play as an archer just to get the match to end. It's either that or suicide button for me as anytime I try knocking a tree down it ends with the archer either pouncing on my head with a full charge (50% of the time I slash and manage to kill them, the other 50% I die.) or they jump to another tree/vantage point. This analogy is more appropriate for CTF to me, for example if the enemy is busting through your wall to get the flag then all 3 of the classes have their own use. You can be a knight and tank some damage and start barreling through the crowd, you can be an archer and try to pick off the flag carrier from a distance and maybe land some stomps on knights, or you can be a builder and patch the hole/block the flag in. While yes in certain circumstances one's gonna be more useful than the other (Like if your entire team is builders or archers) but it never gets to the point where I feel like I have to be a specific class, I always feel like I have some form of choice in how I wanna deal with situations but in TDM the way with archers is essentially archer or death.

    I'm generally tired when I play KAG because I have sleeping issues due to antidepressants (This tiredness carries into the forums which can make me not make sense a lot of the time, probably like now) and the archer has me using my brain a lot to plan escape routes and dodging. Knights just timing for me which is why I love it so much, I can shut my brain off and sorta relax and let my eyes and hands do all the work. I'd just like to see something to break away from heavily encouraged archer maps, I've seen whole lobbies of knights go archer just because one archer joins and nobody can counter them unless they went archer themselves and it always ruins the server for me because it just turns into an arrow storm or chase-hell. Either way, doesn't affect me anymore because I rarely play TDM nowadays but it's something still worth talking about :>

    And in case you're wondering yes, I was incredibly tired as of writing this, so if I don't make any sense I apologize in advance, sorry :D
     
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  18. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

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    Special ammo shouldnt even be brought up to talk about balance so i wont even respond to that point. Im just bringing up that it is in no way fair to be expected to just deal with an archer in a 1 vs 1 situation. I know it is bull because it just is not fair. Then again most of my rage is probably geared towards their tdm free kiting areas.
    wow, you've like literally fixed my entire issue.
    Yea, because having to fight an archer with 1 heart vs their 2 hearts is completely possible. Since that is literally what happens 9/10 times.
     
  19. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    Honestly, why not? Archers have ammo when they want to even deal damage. Having a bomb up your sleeve to give you the reach to catch archers if you don't want to swap class is viable (and historically has been a sore point for archers)

    It's the approach I take, and I don't feel as much salt about it. As I see it, your issue is that ladder spam cleanup takes a long time. You have an option to make it take less time. Maybe you should give it a go. :v

    You're inviting cries of git gud at this point. I know the odds are stacked, but if you're down to two hearts "literally 9/10 times" you concede to class swap you're making that decision too late, and if you find it "completely impossible" to do 2 hearts of damage to an archer in 1v1 without taking damage, well, I honestly don't know what else to say to you.
     
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  20. an_obamanation

    an_obamanation The boss Donator

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    I'd say because it sorta leads into the whole "Water is op pls nerf" chestnut. But also in my book because sure you can use bombs to counter an archer running, but they can use water arrows to counter your bombs (I'm not sure about this but I think i've been killed a few times when an archer shot a bomb arrow below my lit bomb and forced it to blow up, don't quote me on that though.) Fortunately I feel water arrows are sorta okay in TDM as they're a hefty 40 coins per two, but on CTF they're 20 and I've been spammed by them numerous times and had bombs blow up in my face when i'm chasing the little guys around, at least they're losing ground on CTF though.

    Honestly special ammo usually solves my problems unless the archer is defensive playing (No, not a regular archer, a DEFENSIVE archer, much worse problem) who will rarely ever get near you and is prepared to let the match end in a stalemate if you don't wanna fall into their bait. Bombs are usually impossible to hit these guys with unless they're waterbombs which I never buy because I don't like being a dick, but this is my one exception to the rule and even then I miss around 75% of the time because they're so far away that I can never hit them. Still, you DO run out of coins eventually so it's not a 100% cure to the issue, it only helps knights get by, which i'm at least grateful for but think could be better, "How would you improve it then Terri?!" absolutely no clue, very difficult thing when it comes to the balance of archer v knight as they're vastly different. My only idea is the creation of a new class but that'd be very time consuming, confusing for older players, and would probably just present newer worse balance issues. But that could be my pessimism talking :>