General Knight Changes

I fail to see your reasoning, unless there's been some update that hasn't released in my country yet. Arrow slashing was only the cherry on the Knights-being-able-to-block-every-arrow-that-comes-their-way cake. Archers still have the lowest health, slowest/poorest damage, highest skill requirement, most downsides/counters etc.

 

@bobotype Nah man, when I 1v1 knights, I want a nice flat terrain, maybe some trees.

 

It isn't a "large nerf". A LARGE nerf would be the Knight having no Shield at all.
Go on, tell me when a Knight ever has to drop his Shield while doing Knight stuff? Using Drills and charging Slash is pretty much the only example, he can do everything else holding RMB. So he's not going to get hit by an arrow cause he's not going to drop his shield! Archer ranged ability is a joke.

3 things.
1), that quote from a different point of view:
"Ok, sure, so the Knight's main disadvantage is limitation to short range, which means he can't fight at long range. If we give him a Shield that can block almost everything, gameplay will immediately become imbalanced against unstoppable Knights that haven't got that long range disadvantage and can go where they please."
2): Why not get your own Archers on-side then to counter the enemy Archers? That's the situation with the 2 other classes at the moment. They have a Knight, you gonna need a Knight. They have a Builder, you likely gonna need a Builder. They have an Archer? Nothing you can't counter, nothing unique except niche stuff like fire. Also, Knights still have the opportunity to, you know, dodge? Dodge Arrows rather than standing still and watching them ping off your Shield? Like, jumping, moving backwards, bombjumping and gliding, rushing forwards to be safe directly in front of the wall, etc. Remember that Archer's range has been dropped to like 50 tiles max as well, it's not like they'll be sniping from the other side of the map. Arrows are fairly slow in their flight pattern, and only do 1 damage each, unlike certain classes with a charge ability that instantly kills on the second click.
3): One of the two current proposed Archer playstyles, apart from the CQC Archer, as you have been saying Auburn, is the "support" Archer that fires Arrows constantly at enemy Knights so as to try and get a hit in when an allied Knight is fighting them. How is that playstyle any different from "archers camping in towers"?

Archers need high skill to even be useful to their team any further than duhhhhh I can kinda hurt knights if som 1 helps. A Builder can be useful by just throwing up a shitty Wall. A Knight can be useful by just spamming Bombs at walls. If Archer has a high skill requirement from the ground up, then it's going to drive players away from the class, and that is "something wrong".
[I can do a lot more damage as archer than I can as builder[/quote]
Not in terms of using basic kit, or getting startled. A builder can pretty rapidly pick enemies to death, even though there's very few situations where that's a good idea [and Knights will kill them every time they try cause #lolshield]. 4 hits can even take out a Knight from the right side in about 2.5 seconds if they forget to aim their Shield or something. Archers have to charge even their most basic attack for 1 second to deal 1 Heart of damage. And if we're talking terrain damage, a Builder can cause far more destruction with one cata than an Archer can with a Bomb Arrow, or they can just use their basic Pick to hack away.

Sure way to counter any Archer except a CQC Archer:
>Hold down RMB firmly, so your finger don't slip, mkay
>Approach wall with cooked bomb, place bomb at bottom of wall
>destroy wall
>cross through hole in wall to flag or Hall, making sure to turn left or right as appropriate so your Shield faces the Archer
>Pick up flag or capture hall, remembering to hold RMB
>leave with flag/win
Or you also have the option of doing all those things you listed. Or you can just bomb jump and glide right past his ass, because having the Shield upwards will even block arrows to the kidneey. Thankfully they're working to rectify this but currently it's ridiculous.

Okay, yeah, fair enough. So does that mean that a pro CQC Archer doesn't operate well on, say, a hill?

 

I might get a little of subject here but Auburn and Geti already said what I would've.
This hit box comment really interested me so I'm going to make a quick note(I really hope you mean the archer cursor or I might get really off subject).
I actually redid the archer cursor not to long ago, I raised it by about 2-3 pixels with a red dot instead. I found it extremely accurate for close range to nearly full range. However at full range I think the original cursor actually is set up right.

To sum it up I ended losing the cursor file after an update(back up your files mates). I now find myself shooting once or twice to find where the arrow is going to go. I think this would be something worth going after, it would maybe encourage less camping from archers(when it's not needed).
Just my opinion of course but I would like to see less "knight op" threads, maybe this is the missing piece!

P.S. Since I started playing kag I was in love, I'd still be playing if it didn't get updated at all.

 

Anyone have a video of when archer had knives and could backstab so we can show bobotype how bad it was?

 

Lol I remember playing dead and instantly killing enemy knights as they walked by. At one point an archer was more likely to try to stab the shit out of you rather then shoot an arrow.
I'm actually so glad I was around for that, it was a fun experience.
I don't think we'll ever go back to it either.

 

I've learned to play, mate, and mastered most stuff [except I still don't know how to build those wacky directional traps as Builder and I can't consistently get grapplestomp kills/bomb jump with more than a bomb, still practising.
Anyway, none of what you said is reasons. You're just all "you're lying, you're wrong". Wut.

Yeah Geti I know

Spoiler

- Swordplay in general (not just slashing): If you mean jabbing, that's barely a second in length per jab, the Archer needs about a second and a half to charge and fly a ranged damage shot.
- Holding stuff, as you said: But you can Shield holding boulders, burgers, Kegs, Crates, and most importantly, both your Bombs. It's only Drills and Mines that restrict you.
- Whenever stunned by anything (ie very often in combat with other knights, or when archers are packing water):But the closer Knight then just earns the kill from their own stun because they can attack them faster than you can charge a volley and a full shot to kill them yourself. Water ammo's stun is not long enough for an Archer who fired it to deal killing damage. You'd need what, 2 water arrows per kill to get kills that way, which isn't gold efficient enough to get more Water Arrows to continue it.
- Whenever bombjumping (have to aim shield downwards, opening up for attacks): I've even shot Knights from front-on before with their Shield facing directly down, and they've blocked it. I know you're working on this and appreciate it, but that's the way it is atm.

But if a Knight runs into that same group and starts stabbing people Geti, that isn't considered "support"?
The Knight is attacking to get a kill, same as the Archer. If the Archer is just inputting damage into the fight, that's attacking at range.
If he's just inputting a brief stun, which as_you_said_yourself Knights can do as well, it's just a byproduct of him trying to do damage. There is nothing "support" related an Archer does that a Knight can't do.

It's really all the Archer can do though against Knights without some kind of help, so in that regard it is. Special Arrows need a Builder, "supporting" [stealing kills from Knight or stunning so Knight can take the kill you were looking for, choose one] needs a Knight.
So if they were killing you alone, without anyone else, just them and 3 special arrows, that's not supporting. The Builder was supporting them- he provided their special ammunition with which to kill you solo.

Yes, another reason why Archers getting more Shield workarounds wouldn't necessarily lead to "camping all day in towers", or would change nothing in the players that already do, which @Auburn was trying to argue.

Doorways tho, but otherwise yeah I was exaggerating a bit. But the O.G. point was that Knights can do what they want when a non-CQC Archer is atop a wall, and that Archer can't stop them from cooking their bomb to damage the structure because they just Shield.
To everyone else, I know what the Knife was like before, and I'm not asking for a return to it. The Archer's focus should not be at bloody close quarter combat or support, it should be in long range and medium range attacks.
Current suggestion:

Spoiler

Shield being unusable while cooking/holding Bombs/Water Bombs, carrying Crates, Burgers, Boulders etc.
Obviously it would be only fair to disable grapple for the Archer carrying the Boulder/Crate as well, unless said Boulder is in inventory.
Shield only being able to cover the legs or head at the one time, standard facing-forward/angled down protecting the legs from attack but leaving head vulnerable, and angled diagonally up protecting the head from harm but leaving legs vulnerable.

 

This thread... why even it is... what for it?

 

It for change knight... then Auburn agree... now bobotype spam complain

 

>I HAVE MASTERED THE GAME, I AM THE KING OF YOUR GOLD, PEASANTS
>how do u grapple adn bomb

Spoiler: Current suggestion

Bobotype stops posting until he can find a way to prove that he isn't awful at KAG

 

I thought I posted a 1v1 challenge against him. It was either deleted or didnt post.

 

Fuck, there's so much negative reaction just over ideas. Just stop it, talk about the ideas or leave the thread, the whole reason this is taking so long is because so many people are just posting to say "I dont like bobotype ermergurd" or "bobotype is not gud enough for my standards and therefore cannot comment on the imbalance of the game" or "I dont like Ideas but wont give reasons".
The first 5 posts above me are exactly examples of this. Geti is the only one who's addressed the ideas at all, which is what this thread is for.

But that means you're saying that a prerequisite of Archer is to play Builder beforehand in that situation, .something that a Builder never has to do]. Also the Archer previously being the Builder that provided him with Special Arrows does not change the fact that that was a Support action. The Archer's Coin income would have done nothing without a Builder in the equation.

Being in "immediate danger" still doesn't make a class support. The Archer can be in immediate danger at any time from another enemy Archer, and if your Knight tries to attack them, that isn't considered "supporting". Simply being able to attack enemies at range doesn't instantly mean that that class is the support.

How can the archer simultaneously be not "not a ranged class" and yet not have a ranged role? What am I missing?!

- The Archer has nearly no unique mechanisms directly designed to aid allies: tacked-on fish arrows is all. The available stuns are mirrored in the Knight's kit, and building destruction is a bigger feature in Knight than it is Archer [Mines, Kegs, Bombs and Slashes compared to fire arrows and costly bomb arrows.]. Having that at "range" doesn't make it a support item, just a long range destructive item [remember, Bombs and other items have a range as well, but aren't considered Support items]. All other features are geared to mobility [grapple and tree climbing]. The Archer is designed to damage other enemies at range-Archers and Builders-, but cannot do so to Knights without help from another Knight, because Archers are weak.

- The Builder is the only class with mechanisms directly designed for supporting: Building respawns, vehicles, providing a heal, providing allies with ammunition, and providing a teleporter that can move allies around the map. The builder can create defensive structures and can also sap enemy structures or build ladders to get in or provide Catapults to destroy them. Without the Builder, both other classes have no reliable healing, and no Bombs, Fire Arrows etc. The Builder is the Support: allied movement, healing, ammunition. These are facts.

But Archers already burn coins anyway with basic Arrows, being the only class to do so. If that's the concern, just decrease arrows per bundle, and voila decreased arrow spam. If you have a camping Archer to deal with, get your own Archer.

To have that Water Arrow in the first place, you need Gold from kills. You also can't aim directly down if the Knight is at the tower base.

But your opponent isn't always a pub Knight! "charging an arrow after you see someone attack" isn't the problem, they're the one attacking so they're the one dictating when you can shoot. Otherwise you might go overtime that you can hold your Arrow.
[/spoiler]

I was thinking more a situation where you can fire your Legolas Shot, aiming head-legs-head or legs-head-legs, and generally get at least 1 damage out of it if you're accurate [RNG complicates matters] because at least one area is vulnerable at a time. Why would you hate Shield dropping while cooking a Bomb? It would allow Archers to actually shoot Knights, you know.

 

Lock this thread?

 

It's not like he can do that.