General Knight Changes

I realise it's designed for a risk/reward mechanic. However what it really means is that the counter to the Knight's counter of your ranged attack can only be used at short range. To put it in other terms to display how ridiculous it is: Since the Knight has a Shield that blocks your long-ranged attack, if you want to attack him at long-range, you have to be at close range.
Also, people keep saying "large numbers of Archers". If you're being a retarded lone Knight taking on a large number of Archers, you don't deserve to live. Otherwise, you also possess large numbers with you, hopefully using teamwork, which is what KAG should be-- not solo pushes like a Knight can currently execute.

For every Archer you add to that "exponential power increase" hypothetical, you also have to add one Knight on your own team; say you have 10 Archers, you also have 10 Knights, or 40 Hearts of Health. Even if 10 Archers are there making sure that there is a solid volley coming at you, they still have 4 seconds each inbetween volleys, and they have ammo to worry about. You can just back up or run forward or jump or fake direction or whatever your chosen arrow-dodging method is, then head in for the kill. And even if you do get hit by a volley because of a mistake, you're a Knight. You have 4 hearts of damage, you're the tankiest unit ingame and you will live. You can dodge until their ammunition runs out in 3 increments of 4 seconds, you can just tank the damage entirely, or you can undermine if you're a Builder to bypass them because screw those guys. Or, you can just get your own Archers and return fire!

No, because of a few reasons. Arrows aren't free, so even with a Shop you're still not able to spam Arrows indefinitely if whoever's trying to pass you knows how to dodge. So if you run out of Gold and Arrows completely, you either have retrieve them manually [making you vulnerable] or return to the tent and pick up more Arrows. So you can't maintain an indefinite spam, which is the main problem of camping: keeping up an unending volley which stops people approaching and attacking you. All you have to do is intelligently dodge, and if that Archer isn't hitting you, he will, shortly, lose the ability to attack at all.

This system would encourage Knights seeing an Archer overchargin' his lazor to start thinking which way he's aiming so they can dodge, just like Knights currently take notice of other Knight's doubleslash charge and placement.

Spoiler

I liked it because he hadn't yet finished editing his post and the post I liked only contained the suggestion about a "dislike" button, not any of your points at all. Calm down, I wasn't following your illogical behaviour just because he's an Archer or dumb bullshit like that which you seem to be implying. At any rate, I'd be more inclined to listen to him because I have less of a past history of verbal abuse from him than from you.

Trying not to respond to the off topic bullshit but this irony is just fucking delicious. Currently in the thread everyone except a few are trying to shout down my ideas with their opinion, and effectively censor; asking for me to be gagged (e.g.@sirpixelot) or just shitting on me with insults (@Arcrave) because they don't like them. If anyone has the 1984 mindset, it's some of the people in this thread doing their level best to silence an idea entirely. You're claiming that I should conform to the opinion of the "majority" because the "majority" says so. That's 1984 right there. Go back and read it again, you missed the message.
Also I'm pretty sure I'm not asking for security cameras everywhere. The 1984 metaphor is ridiculous anyway, this is a forum.

Let me point out that currently, the Ranged Attack class Archer is only rewarded for attacking at an 11 tile range or CQCing with grapple, and the Knight, as the "heavier" class, packs a LOT of MOBILITY OPTIONS. Slashdashing [in water fastest class], Shield glide, surfing, floating up walls, bombjumping etc. It seems a bit fucking odd that the "heavier" class can literally float through the air.
I also said: I'm not asking to reward camping. Rarer ammo is an anti-camping mechanism because if they're always firing at maximum range then they're more likely to miss Arrows, so if you aren't sure of your aim you have to go closer to hit, yet it still allows, and rewards, well done 50-tile shots if you're willing to risk the ammo.

It's an attack made entirely of Arrows. Arrows don't normally prompt people to think "I can only use this at close range".

@infinitito -Maybe if people stopped slinging shit at me and just discussed as a select few have actually done, it would be easier to actually reach an idea that makes everyone happy. I don't think they will, though. It's easier to sling shit than to think up good reasons, especially when the mods seem to not care.

 

It's honestly not that hard to dodge a fairly slowly moving arrow object in a 2D game. You get hit with one legolas shot, you've got 4 seconds grace till the next one. You also only get 3 more Legolas shots if you went to the considerable trouble of having a Builder make you a shop at the front line and defending it. Otherwise you're limited to 3 legolas shots.

It actually is pretty ridiculous seeing as the Archer's weapons posess long range, but can't actually use it, and have ammo restrictions, but hardly ever have to scrounge ammo. Of course Knights don't always have their Shields up if they're fighting other Knights, then they have to drop it for all of 2.5 seconds to charge their attack. That's really it, unless they're out of Bombs they can even destroy stuff with Shield up.

Gameplay will not lean heavily towards Archers camping in towers. As I've told you, 2 things work against that, the ammo limitation and the 4 second delay between Legolas shots.

I'm not saying we should go back to every single shot recking a Knight, but if you spend 4.x seconds charging a long range attack that costs ammo, that is definitely enough penalties for it to go through a Shield on hit.
Knight: Overcharge attack is a CQC instakill, takes 2.x seconds to charge, grants speed boost, penetrates Shields
Archer:Overcharge attack is a three-shot where all shots must impact for 2 damage, takes 4.x seconds to charge, uses 3/10 ammo, penetrates Shields at range
All the disadvantages nicely balance the ranged advantage, see?

 

Constantly dodging arrows is actually quite hard as knight running along the ground, even with a shield. If there was just one archer shooting it would be fine but there are often several, factor in the fact that you may have to take on another knight and it becomes nigh impossible. Water and fire arrows will also need nerfing if this happens.

What you are suggesting makes the archer an extremely easy class to play at a low level, as all you need to do is spam arrows. No one without a high skill in archer combat will bother venturing out. Ammo limitation won't stop campers, it will increase their numbers. If you can't pick up as many arrows of the battlefield, they will just hang around a shop instead.

You also seem to be unable to understand the advantages of ranged attacks. Yes, knights have a one hit kill attack. If you predict it you can knock them back with a single shot if they are close enough and then charge an unshieldable triple. Ranged attacks are extremely powerful, especially in high numbers. Ever played a mod where you control a wizard? Their attacks are hard to block and easy to aim. For this reason it is always hard to gain the option to play as them. Archers seem weak at first, but they are really glass cannons. If you could hit a knight anywhere it would be too easy.

What you suggest decreases the amount of skill needed to play by instead adding cheap difficulty in the form of extreme ammo limitations. You are countering a ridiculous buff with a ridiculous nerf, that will never balance a class and it actually upsets the whole game. Archers are probably harder to use, but the have loads of good points too. Knights are easy to use and satisfying, but archers, once mastered, are even better (in my opinion).

It is really hard to balance two radically different classes. You are looking at this in too much detail and trying to weigh up the numbers. If you just play the game a bit more, you be able to understand why everyone doesn't have a problem with the things you do. Sometimes I used to think the balance was really bad and complained, but with more experience I can see what I was doing wrong. If something happens that seems unfair, try and look at just that thing in context instead of trying to match up stats (many of which are hard to measure) to prove that knights are "just better" than archers. You have made some good points but things aren't really so black and white. The devs are quite close to a balance right now, which is why most people are happy to play it as it is. The are some necessary changes (like the knights shield span) that take a bit of trial and error, but one class is not dominating the other. I think there are just a few areas where one has a slightly unfair advantage that feels cheap. Try to look at the classes overall and their roles instead of making it a sort of "knight vs archer" debate.

 

Let's just hope that bobotype never mods for kag, or makes his own games..

But seriously, all of your thought patterns seem completely based on 1 v 1 fights.

At range, archers are a support class. Their knights give them openings to land hits. With the frequency of stuns, and the separation of attention, it is nigh impossible to continuously dodge arrows in a teamfight, while also paying attention to enemy knights, etc.

At close range, archers are capable of solo play, they can actually give openings for their knights by stunning, and are very tough to deal with if played well, but also very risky.

The archer class incorporates TWO different playstyles; Long range support, and close range harass.

The archer is meant to synergize with the knight. They take advantage of a knight's stuns, they can provide knights with arrow ladders, quickly take out structures in the knight's way with bomb/fire arrows, and make combat much, much harder for their opponents.

Stop acting like you're the only person on your team, and take advantage of the traits your own knights. I think you would have a lot less complaints if you played KAG with the right mindset. (Or at all... I'm starting to wonder)

In a 1 vs 1 scenario, with no special ammo/tools involved, a knight deserves to be able to close to that <11 tile range. In that range, a skilled knight and a skilled archer are on somewhat equal ground. The archer, if they know when to run, even has a slight advantage.

In a scenario with teammates, it is very difficult for enemies to close on you, between your knight's slashes and your own arrows. This is where the long range archer shines, when working in unison with their knights.

TL;DR: Archers and Knights are supposed to work together, provide openings for each other, and are only at their best potential when working together.

 

I call plagiarism! Fetch me my attorney!

 

Trumbles actually makes a good point, but in practice I can't count how many times a knight has just left me on the front lines to do his own thing (which is fine, really, just when i'm the one assisting him most of the time, using my special arrows to clear doors for him, etc etc) seems very weird. There's even a tips and tricks thread going around about knight synergy right now, which you'd think would not something that needs to be discussed, in a team based game. Knight naturally encourages a more selfish playstyle, so while the interaction of that and archers are pretty essential for an archer to operate to full capacity, it does not apply itself in the reverse (and probably shouldn't, but this is likely why bobotype is thinking in terms of solo action)

But when quick join makes it so everyone is on 26 player clusterfucks anyway, no amount of teamwork will ever overcome the ol' knight zerg with builder support. I can safely say that would be much different with a competent team in a 16 player setting. Perceptions based on this probably make everything seem more overpowered, as 26 players isn't really a place to get a grasp on the game mechanics.

Of course, this is just me assuming he just goes to those servers, I know for me, finding a 16 player one that's active is very hard. So this might explain why he's thinking in these terms (which isn't even outright wrong really, look at how many people challenge each others to 1v1s for their e-peen.)

 

16 player is love.

16 player is life.

I wish official servers would go down to 8 vs 8.. seriously.

More players = more chaos = less teamwork = stalemates

 

@NinjaCell -

I think for the third time I have to say that if you're trying to take on, in that hypothetical, "several" Archers and a Knight, alone, you don't deserve to live.
Talking teamfights, as Trumbles was, in that situation: If you converted all those hypothetical Archers to hypothetical Knights it would be equally hard to dodge a fray of Doubleslashes, and at least you know which way a Legolas Shot is coming from, and it takes twice as long to charge. As for nerfs to Fire and Water arrows? mayyyybe. If we're talking adding Fire Arrows to the shield penetration mix then maybe, but otherwise Fire Arrows are situational/weak enough already because of the rarity of large wooden buildings and absolutely new/retarded Builders.

But none of that will be possible, I've already made this clear. You have the capability to "spam" Legolas shots... only three times, with a 4.5 second charge interval every time. Spamming will not be possiblebecause even at maximum ammo you'll only have 13 Legolas shots available to you and then after that you can't attack at all. Spamming arrows won't be rewarded at all, and it won't be possible for long. Even with a Shop, if your aim is shit or your enemy knows how to evade, if you aren't getting Gold from hits, and waste all your Arrows, you'll have no means of getting more Arrows at all and that Shop will be useless and you have to return all the way to the tent or go forward and scavenge. It will do the opposite of increasing campers: If you're unsure of your aim, you get in a bit closer to guarantee your shot because Arrows are valuable, and you can't afford to miss. Yet it will still allow 50 tile well-done blindfire shots. And finally, if anything it will increase Archer skill requirement a bit from the lowest level of literally spamming Legolas as is possible with the 30-Arrow bundles that take 45 seconds to exhaust each that we have now.

@Trumbles, you're coming up with a little off topic stuff too. Please try and stay on track rather than insulting me.

This is a contradiction. You're saying "their Knights give them openings to land hits". This means that rather than supporting the Knight, the Knight is supporting them. The Knight is able to function very well in its combat type without the Archer, yet the Archer "needs" a Knight.
Even if you do get hit by a volley in a teamfight, somehow a volley coming at you that's impossible to run backwards from, you've still got 2 Hearts to draw upon, plus a decent supply of Hearts from dead combatants.

This is the problem: Encouraging the class whose entire arsenal consists of Arrows, and a stomp, and the lowest class HP, to fight nearly exclusively at close range. Why even bother calling them Archers? Solo play is possiblebut the Archer isn't good at it by nature of the fact it's a class with a long range attack and all its weaknesses are based around its long range strength. Geti has also told us all not to mention the "support" argument anymore because it's entirely irrelevant, but feel free to PM me if you have reasons why the class with no allied ammo refill, no reliable team heal, no allied transportation aid, and a skill set based on keeping themselves out of harm's way/procuring kills and dealing damage is the "support".

You see, Knights don't need any bullshit buzz words like synergize. Knights go where they please and are not reliant on Archers for many of the things you listed at all. Arrow laddering? Knights can "float" up many walls or boost each other up, or they can get acquainted with their inner bomb jump. Bomb/Fire Arrows? Only retards build with large amounts of Wood, while "quickly taking out structures with Bomb Arrows" means 150 Gold a pop, while Knights have lots of Bombs and can pick up more from corpses. Archers don't synergise, they rely, or else they go play the bastard child of Mario and Spiderman.

Anyway, just saying that the idea of Shield penetration is very balanced with an ammo count nerf. Look at this:
Archer:Overcharge 4.xsec, 2 Hearts of damage on penetrating Shield, 50 tile arcing range, uses 3/10 Ammo per use, suffers mild RNG deviation, all shots must hit, shots can be fanned to multiple targets w/out penetrating Shields.
Knight:Overcharge 2.xsec, instakill all classes and penetrates Shield, grants water/land speed boost, limited to CQC, damages terrain, unlimited use, can change direction after release. CQC nature means Knight has access to gibbed Heart quickly.
Note that everything on the Knight's one is still an advantage except the CQC limitation.

 

Ok Geti, I absolutely understand that you guys have just done an update and aren't looking to change anything now, because we should be playing the current version of the game and seeing what comes of them. Still, in the future if you guys are looking at class balance, please give my ideas a moment, I've put a lot of effort into them and really think they could help gameplay issues.

--- Double Post Merged, May 7, 2014, Original Post Date: May 7, 2014 ---

I don't have much modding expertise with anything but GM8, or anywhere to host it, but I'll look at the places I guess

 

There's many many action games with weapons with 40 or less primary ammo, one example that springs to mind is the Sniper's Huntsman from TF2 which is capable of good damage, is his primary, and has only 12 ammo.
While you might say that, it makes more sense that Archers will enter combat to use the Arrows they have rather than only stay in towers and never do anything. There's no point in simply waiting around in the tower when everyone else is on the front lines, so people will still go forward. Camping near an Archer shop is worthless to you unless you're hitting enemies and getting Gold to buy Arrows.

Bombs are a much easier supply of explosive to deal with multiple small walls than the Bomb Arrow, being picked up from corpses far more often.
If you're returning to a store to buy Arrows that's time you're not attacking because you're spending Gold, which =not being able to keep up an indefinite defence. Also, when telling me to take a look at Classic--in Classic, weren't Arrows far more accurate, lengthy and had only a normal charge time for a stun?

Enough now please. We can continue this in PM if you have good insights.

--- Double Post Merged, May 7, 2014, Original Post Date: May 7, 2014 ---

I don't think Arcrave likes me very much. He's been a bit of a meanie to me and I've responded in turn :(

 

Oh god why do I keep reading this thread.

--- Double Post Merged, May 7, 2014, Original Post Date: May 7, 2014 ---

All I'm going to weigh in with is:

-Arrow-slashing is gone
-Bombs Cost 25 now
-Kegs can be shot off knights
-Shield hitboxes are reduced

Pretty much every reason I've had to whine balance-wise is fixed.

 

Frankly, I think that with all these changes, Archers are over powered. One taunting knight with a pack of archers behind him... MMMMMM So much rektage.

 

The bait is strong in this one
@-Crimson- oh no I've attracted the attention of the New World Order :o

 

@bobotype preach it bro! lol damn you're so dedicated with what you say.