General Knight Changes

I don't like the platform changes.. Makes archer nests far too strong IMO.

 

I'm saying DPS, not DPS hanging above. To my knowledge, on level ground, Archers have the slowest. A 1/4 arrow is like, what, 2 ticks minimum for 0.5, or 1 in your increased velocity situation? and the pick is fastest attack rate and 0.5 per hit, one hit every tick. [I wish I could test this to be sure, but I am definite the Pick has the fastest ingame attack].
If someone can show me concrete numbers saying otherwise, I'll be shocked but satisfied; but if you have an Archer and a Builder on flat ground, what I've always accepted from my time seeing both classes' rare combat meet-ups is that the Builder will be able to kill the Archer first at close range [pretending, too, that they both have 3 hearts].

Also, the whole Archer Nests thing would be much less of a problem if Arrows could actually damage one-way platforms. It's like having a wooden force field.

 

bobotype, have you played the current build? Aat this point in time two archers are able to completely stop an oncoming horde of knight. (Hey that sounds like classic, guess why they made such large changes to classic archer). Also, if you do look at the score board, at least half the people with 1+kdr are archers, sure there aren't anyone like sangfroid with a contstant 5 kdr, but still, archers are the ones that should be kdr whoring. In fact, one - two archers make attacking one halfway decent knight pretty much impossible.

 

If you've memorized the exact time it takes to fire a quarter shot, you can match the attack speed of a pickaxe/jabspam. However, this shouldn't even be necessary.

You're an idiot if you let a builder just sit on your face and smack you to death.

 

shouldn't* my bad, that's what I meant. I've played in a few matches (Basically all my matches) where there were about 2-3 people above 1kdr, and one of them has always been an archer. two archers sitting on top of a hill... can stop an incoming horde of knight for quite a while, as long as the other team doesn't have archers. They their knights come, rape, win.

 

Yeah, but before they were rubbish at keeping knights down from small towers.

 

And have you been listening? I said, they're going to change it. It isn't going to last.
As for the "Archers atop a hill stopping a horde" thing, I've never heard more bull. Okay, let's assume 4+Knights is a "horde". The absolute worst case scenario there is that 2 Knights die, the Archers don't have enough firing speed between them to kill them all. 2 Archers are not going to stop 4 Knights at all, don't be retarded.
What exactly is so wrong to you about one team having (y) Archers and (x) Knights, and the other team just having (x) Knights, and the first team succeeding over the other?

Pretty sure timing those clicks, and the delay between, would negate any sort of DPS claim you can make; Builder can just hold down RMB with no click-timing and deal half-half-half-half. And aren't jabs 1 heart? So Knight still outDPSes Archer there even if you have "exact timing".

You're also an idiot if you're allowing a 2-Heart Archer to be close enough to you to spam quarter arrows. Learn to hypothetical. So yeah, Archer has lowest DPS of the classes unless you exploit Quarter Arrow velocity, in which case it has second lowest.

 

In post #26 of this thread:

https://forum.kag2d.com/threads/bobotypes-effectiveness-rework-of-the-archer.19706/page-2

You had said that bobotype only had 50 hours (at most) of play time.

I wanted to go back and check how many hours he now has but he has made his steam profile private, which I literally fell out of my chair laughing about.

At this point I feel like he doesn't even play KAG anymore and just comes on here to argue about game mechanics that barely anyone agrees with. Mechanics that one of the lead devs scoffs at when suggested.

Why this is even argued about anymore is beyond me.

 

Well since you didn't give any reasons as to in what magical way 2 Archers against 4 equally skilled Knights can stop all of them, I'll assume that you agree with me and that in fact 2 Archers cannot stop 4 equally skilled Knights.

The DPS argument was part of a larger point about the Knight's strength in comparison to the Archer's weakness as a class: in basic kit, Knight has highest DPS, highest Health, terrain destruction, and a powerful mobility/defence item in the Shield. Archers have the lowest DPS, lowest Health, no terrain destruction, and a powerful, situational mobility item. Not all of KAG is about DPS but that doesn't mean it isn't an important factor.
It's pretty poor that all you guys can do is question whether I've played the game, when I obviously have, because you don't actually have any facts backing you up.

You're getting really personally into me, @Duplolas aren't you? It's like you don't understand the concept of an ideas and suggestions forum, and are just taking the opportunity to get into a habit of disliking me, a stranger, rather than being constructive.
It's true I've been offline for the last couple weeks or so, although I was able to try the new build on a friend's computer.
Maybe I made my Steam private because I don't like people being directed to gape at it on a forum as the basis for ad hominem attacks against me? There's nothing wrong with doing that. By the way, my 60 hours are more than adequate for talking about a video game. KAG has many features, but not so many you can't get a good understanding of them all in 60 hours.
I'm making suggestions here because I like KAG a lot-- it's the kind of game I've been looking for for a while-- and would like it to be even more kewl.
Now you need to ask yourself, why are you trying to discredit me? What is your motivation?

 

First off.

Why do you want two archers to be able to stop four knights? Why should they? They are not designed to.

Second, if you want to talk DPS, archers actually only have slightly lower DPS than knights. They can fire 3 shots in succession, dealing 3 hearts of damage. Knight's slash does two damage each, a charged slash dealing 4 (2 in succession).

On top of that archers can stun, and their attacks are ranged.

AND on top of THAT they have their grapple and can escape knights with ease if used correctly.

Two Archers should NOT be able to take out Four knights.

However, they can.

The reason why is because we are not playing a game of Yu-Gi-Oh, where everything has a set value.

MY BLUE EYES WHITE DRAGON WILL FUCK YOU OVER NO MATTER WHAT.

In KAG, actually, IN EVERY SINGLE MULTIPLAYER GAME EVER MADE.

You know why? Because shit ain't black and white yo.

Theres are billions of different outcomes for billions of different scenarios. Sometimes archers will beat knights, sometimes knights will beat archers. But you have to account for terrain, player skill, time of day in each of the player's country, lag, computer specs, maybe one of the archers has arthritis and cramps up. You got all that shit, but you still manage to think that knights always win.

I attack you personally not because I don't have a argument against you, but because others who read this thread who are not regular members might side with you because you act like you know a lot.

However, it is the exact opposite.

There is a reason why you keep your profile private, and it is because you want to try to maintain some sort of appearance that you have the knowledge and experience to be able to talk about what you do with such passion.

Because who the fuck would, in the right mind, argue about a game so much with so little hours unless there was something wrong with them?

Spoiler

That would be me about 8 months ago (Just got my 1 year on forums achievement)

Takes one to know one bebe

 

Not speaking for anyone else here, but with the time i've owned KAG, i've played using the standalone launcher as opposed to the steam version, and as such my steam hours logged would also seem low. It would not at all surprise me if this was the case for others, not as if any of this current discussion is relevant to the quality of ideas presented or really anything other than 4chan-esque tactics of present-ad-hom-as-intellectual-discourse.

Not only that but all I can discern from the end of Duplolas post, he's apparently alleging that based on the fact he once trolled about this game, everyone who is inexperienced does it? Or that somehow this means he's better qualified to tell the difference between harmless bad ideas and malicious deception? You'd do yourself well to look up psychological projection.

Whatever bobotype did, didn't do, does, or plans to do, whatever you feel about his ideas and he, as a person, even a broken clock is right twice a day, and he's not harming anyone by posting his ideas (however far fetched) in here even if you believe these last 2 points, however what I find is harmful, is in general, the reaction to these ideas. It's easy to articulate why you disagree with someone without any of this, frankly.

 

@bobotype, what do u think about builders? And everything else? Maybe your problem doesn't lies in the two other classes... It could be the terrain, the trees or maybe the night in TTH...

Think all your changes would destroy the game...

babysteps, bobo... babysteps...

@Arcrave, need a gif please for this! please!

 

I have suggested more ideas than anyone else on this forum. So yes, I am over qualified in the field of what would be good and what would not be good put in the game and what is worth arguing over.

Yes, his suggestions are harmless, mainly because none of them will ever be implemented, just as my insults are harmless because bobotype will never listen to me, or anyone else for that matter.

The reason why I am using these methods are because the same methods were used on myself by others and now I don't run around proposing awful suggestions (well not that many) and I actually can be helpful.

I hope bobotype can one day do the same.

Also I never said that all inexperienced players "troll" about the game.

 

@Duplolas : Spamming doesn't make you more qualified at anything...

*Ahem*.. Anyways. Moving on from this pointless argument/discussion/whateverthefuck, a new public build has been released! Some highlights;

• Shield angles are slightly larger in most states (not as big as old shields, only slightly larger than they were last build) You now also have more freedom to choose your block direction while in midair.
• Kegs have been tweaked! They now have their original weight, you're now supposed to be able to attack with them, but the fumbling mechanic is still in! This means that keg carriers have a chance to defend themselves, but they can still fumble if they get hit. You are also able to bombjump with kegs once more, and the keg has been offset a bit, so it's harder to hit with arrows from the front. (archers can now shoot while holding kegs, also)
• Mines have been tweaked! All classes can now use left/right click functions while holding mines (this means archers can shoot and grapple with them, and knights can attack/shield)

What's everybody's opinion on these three changes? I for one, will be carrying mines a lot as archer. I'll now be able to grapple-fling them long distances, and roll them along the ground. Mine bowling, anyone?

This also now makes kegs non-useless again, but they are also still counterable. I'm looking forward to how this plays out. Also, now that archers and knights can freely attack w/ kegs, we might see more knights passing lit kegs off to archers! (hooray class synergy)

Also, CTF build time has been bumped from 120 seconds to 180 seconds. This could potentially have a large impact on how we see the current balance of things, in a large game.

 

The "I hit you in the body but the keg flew off anyway" as an archer thing seems to be fixed with this build, as earlier I had to actually hit the keg itself to make that happen. I also appear to be able to still hit knights at somewhat obtuse angles with their shield deployed, but not at the crazy insane rate of the experimental balance patch, so that's great too.

I don't know if this was just lag or not though, but earlier I got slashed through my shield, to be fair the guy was at or near 150 ping though, and I don't play knight much unless my team needs me to; So it was probably just a combination of be being bad and lag, because the shields are probably at a pretty optimal point now based on some of the shots i've registered as archer.

Also Auburn, about the water thing, is the issue most people are having just about certain water-heavy maps or water in general? Whenever I play knight if there's just a small bit of water it's not too bad, you can usually get leverage at one of the sides etc, but on maps where there are tons of water and the map's big (I think everyone has voteskipped the one i'm talking about at least once) it's much harder to deal with and around, personally from my experience that map is also stalemate city.

Yeah that was my brain acting up, I figured you weren't talking about inexperience here, and I think I confused you for someone else who used the word trolling in effect incorrectly earlier in the thread. You make a good point though, if people do help bobotype like this, or by for instance maybe in game training, he'll probably develop into someone everyone is fine with. I just don't think people's views on him, or whatever are really helping matters. I remember this forum not reacting too well to a fella named kingzandercom at times too (might be spelling that wrong) but he's a pretty good knight from what i've seen in game. I don't know if this was a developed over time thing, but yeah dude I think someone taking anyone unexperienced under their wing is a good idea, and I think the recent efforts to balance some things out in the game will mean there will be plenty of even newer people to help.

 

If only flinging them was an option. If they fall 10 blocks they break, and that is starting with no initial velocity / momentum.