1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hey Guest, is it this your first time on the forums?

    Visit the Beginner's Box

    Introduce yourself, read some of the ins and outs of the community, access to useful links and information.

    Dismiss Notice

General Knight Changes

Discussion in 'Balance' started by Auburn, Sep 13, 2013.

  1. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

    Messages:
    899
    If a builder sits back while the team push, he has plenty of time to build a two or three thick wall with defences before his team gets whipped out. Them they've gained land because knights can't get over easily. No use bomb jumping into 2-3 enemy knights.

    Plus, a good builder can take on a knight head on using spike drops, he just need 3 wood backwalls and some timing.
     
    Auburn likes this.
  2. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    A small tower like this:
    2014-10-22_00001.jpg
    should stop the majority of knights, and stop enemies long enough for your knights to get there. Although, You can't toss up walls while the knight is a few blocks away, and that's as it should be.
     
    Klokinator and NinjaCell like this.
  3. revsta

    revsta Shipwright

    Messages:
    88
    A two/three thick wall with defenses doesn't mean much. A knight can bomb jump over it when the other guys are dead, or land on the top of it. Knights can bomb jump really, really high if they know how.
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 22, 2014 ---
    That tower isn't stopping anything. A knight or two can hop over that no problem.
     
  4. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    Not everyone has a bomb, not everyone knows how to bomb jump. The majority of knights are average knights. They probably won't be able to get over that easily before your own team gets to that tower. Stop over exaggerating that knights are more mobile than they are. knights aren't that mobile without bombs.

    Also, here's an idea to counter all bomb-jumping:
    Build a fucking roof
     
  5. revsta

    revsta Shipwright

    Messages:
    88
    Seriously, do you even play this game? Knights can get over that wall no problem. Two knights one will just boost and come over and kill that worker.

    You can't build roofs on massive towers without tons of headache and a long long time, and then you run the risk of it all coming down on your team and your stuff, not to mention the roof gives the knight something to easily walk across to get to the rest of your base. This is why people generally build traps and holes etc. on the other side of their walls, unless you have a dedicated builder making a huge grid block/door base for you.
     
  6. NightCurse

    NightCurse Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    8
    well, in my opionion the knight is still op! i like to play all classes and a tower which was shown is easy to jump over for almost everyone who know´s how to play as knight! archer is not really op in any case, it is so that the archer has high agility and it´s sure that a trained player can kill 1 maybe 2 knights, but i only seeing it very rare and it is not easy, because to charge to shotgun shot takes much longer as the charging of the knights charge attack.
     
  7. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

    Messages:
    899
    pfft

    When I player archer, I dominate a team of knights, steal their flag and win the game.
     
  8. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    The way the tower was built allowed for a spikedrop if knights decide to boost off of each other. Also, that basic tower only has to do its job until your knights and archers get there. Buildings aren't supposed to hold off teams forever without the support of other classes.
    I really don't think knights need to be nerfed anymore, you just have to find ways to build better and maybe work with your team instead of trying to go solo builder.
     
    NinjaCell likes this.
  9. NinjaCell

    NinjaCell Bison Rider

    Messages:
    357
    Assuming they have bombs.

    Are you actually asking that builders should be able to build a fully functioning base tower (that can't be bomb-jumped over or destroyed quickly) in a matter of seconds?

    All they have to do is stop some of the knights for like 30 secs until they get reinforcements. Even if they get over, if you can push back before they get a builder in, you can make it stronger until less and less knights get through and you have more map control. Teamwork is a wonderful thing.

    EDIT: @Auburn Sorry if this seems too similar your post, I wrote this a bit ago then forgot to post it.
     
  10. NightCurse

    NightCurse Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    8
    Real teamplay is rare in KAG ... there are a very rare ammount of Teamplayer.
     
  11. revsta

    revsta Shipwright

    Messages:
    88
    No, I'm not suggesting that, and it's not even true. First, the builder would have to have the mats, and second the builder would have enough space between him and the knight to get that building beyond the knights jump/scale/float height before the knight jumps over and kills him. This is also assuming that this is a pure 1v1 and there's nobody on either team anywhere near this area. That situation is probably never going to happen. Knights will catch the builder and kill him easily before he can get a wall up that's tall enough, and that wall he so quickly builds will not have backing or doors, so it will limit his team getting over it immediately until he manages to rig something up for them. This is all still assuming he has mats--

    By the time he fixes this building up it's not hard to think that an archer or a builder or a knight with a bomb or two knights can get to this wall and do something about it. Walls are quite easily taken down in games and take a while to get up.

    By you asking me "Are you seriously suggesting a builder should be able to build a fully functioning base tower in a matter of seconds?" what you're actually asking is "Are you seriously saying that builders should have some method what so ever to counter a knight or rushing force of the other team out in center map?" The amount of time it takes for a knight to jump and scale a wall is less than the amount of time it takes for a builder to get a wall up that's too high to scale, and it's dependent on whether or not he has the mats, and it's going to get in his teams way if he does it, and this supposes the knight doesn't have a bomb or a team mate, and it supposes there's not an archer on the opposing team who just hops over and kills him, and it's supposing a builder doesn't come over and hack it down, and it's supposing it's not made of wood and the knight doesn't hack it down.....

    Teamwork is a wonderful thing, and it works both ways. Builders throw up tiny buildings like this ALL THE TIME and they get taken down ALL THE TIME. The only towers that ever survive a long time are base towers that were build before the match began, or a huge team work tower in center map when you have a team with a consistent push to keep the other team back. Mid little towers like the one above go down all the time and quite easily.
     
  12. Potatobird

    Potatobird Bison Rider Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    777
    It takes like 2 seconds to set up an unscalable defense. You spawn with enough mats. Then you have some space to fortify it. It will still probably fall quickly unless the team comes and actually uses it. If you're making a frontline defense, it doesn't need to be a masterpiece, especially not at first. Hell, it can just be 5 wood blocks as an overhang strategically placed on some terrain. Builders most certainly can counter enemy rushes, even by themselves, if they're quick and smart about it. You keep saying "And that's if they have the mats". What is that supposed to mean? Builders need mats to do things. Is that a problem?

    Yes, bombjumps can go over any structure. That is not necessarily a bad thing. It still takes some skill, luck, and strategy to actually do anything as a lone knight once you're the only guy on their side of the tower. I for one would be pretty bummed if bombjumping was nerfed.
     
    NinjaCell likes this.
  13. NinjaCell

    NinjaCell Bison Rider

    Messages:
    357
    Actually, the tower in the centre of the map will start out as a small tower. The majority of builders do not build towers ALL THE TIME, they just hang back and do nothing. It's not that the mechanics are bad, it's just that a lot of players don't know how to use them.

    If your towers get knocked down it's due to your bad coordination, it's not the games fault. As you can see, the majority of players have no problem with it.

    I am not assuming 1v1 (how can building something count as 1v1?). If you are honestly trying to build a tower when a knight is close by and no one is assisting you, that's why you are dying. That's also why I suggested building at a position behind your teammates as they have the advantage. When the enemy comes over, you will have a big enough tower to hold them for a while until you get some help in. Even if you die, you are still holding players off and increasing your team's map dominance. If you are that worried about K/D, go play Call of Duty.

    Also, I notice you have made no suggestions as to how this could be fixed or what specifically causes the problem.
     
    Verzuvius, Blue_Tiger and Auburn like this.
  14. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    In just about all of your examples and counter-arguments, you keep saying that the enemy team is in near full force, but your team is nowhere to be seen. If you don't have your team and the enemy is right in front of you, why the fuck are you trying to build a brand new tower to hold them back? It is a much better option to retreat and fortify an already existing tower.
    I'm not really sure if you're playing builder properly or not, you may want to read up on some tutorials.
     
    Verzuvius and NinjaCell like this.