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General Knight Changes

Discussion in 'Balance' started by Auburn, Sep 13, 2013.

  1. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    917
    Resurrecting this thread to talk about the problem with knights being able to move so fast in water due to double slash. Didn't want to make a new thread to discuss this one feature.

    I think it is a concept that should be removed from the game. All the other classes besides knight move slower than knight and basically never can escape a knight in water.

    Thoughts?
     
    Saigon likes this.
  2. eamono

    eamono Arsonist

    Messages:
    498
    On the topic of knights in water they either need to remove shield surfing or make slashs only push you up while in the water (so you can still slash up structure in water
     
  3. Saigon

    Saigon Builder Stabber

    Messages:
    76
    I totally agree! As an archer I find it annoying that the knights are as mobile as they are - they can just bomb jump to anywhere. So if they at least were the same speed in water, or the archer being a bit quicker in water, that would be cool ^^
     
  4. One

    One I got 99 problems and my name is One Donator Tester

    Messages:
    641
    Making knights a tad bit slower in water is something I agree on, the abuse of slash to gain speed is lame.
     
  5. Raelian

    Raelian Ballista Bolt Thrower

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    232
    I'd second that. They already get a short speed and jump boost due to slashing, making them swim at the same speed as the rest of the classes seems like a sensible thing to do.
     
    Saigon likes this.
  6. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    But swimming knights can still be outrun by both builders and archers. You can place a couple of blocks as a builder if you find a dirt wall, and there's usually some floaty islands hanging around in the official maps.

    It's thrilling to have multiple knights chasing you, then outwitting them.
     
  7. Yagger

    Yagger Kouji's bitch 5eva Staff Alumni Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    646
    Slashes naturally push you forward due to momentum. It makes sense that knights could get a little faster in water if they use their slash, (which only adds short boosts and leaves them open to arrows / etc). Archers can still use their grapple and push back advancing knights with arrows in water, and builders can place blocks.
     
    Apronymous likes this.
  8. Sirpixelot

    Sirpixelot Base Burner
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    776
    Now... the thing about speedy as hell knights is that it makes sense.. o-o
    What if there's a builder running away with your flag in ctf.. if everyone was the same speed (Or if an archer is faster than a knight... even slightly) would make Ctf a bit less fun.. this also works in TTH, if you got a sea betweeen your base and the other, and if the knight is the same speed as the rest, the builder would be able to get up on that wall. Now, I know what you're thinking.. the knight can slash jump up... well that's true.. but still... what if another knight was with the builder... then he would slash ya down before ya know of it.. o-o

    The better thing to do with knights is let them able to fight with a keg on their back... or anything they're carrying that disallowed them to fight in the first place. o-o

    I feel like the knight's current specs are alright. The builder should be buffed in some way... cause I mean really.. they're weak lil mo fos... they're powerful when building sure... but weak when hit... o-o
     
  9. Raelian

    Raelian Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    232
    Outsmart them? Maybe! Outswim them? Not a chance.

    Knights have a clear swimming advantage due to charge slash speed boost and the surfing shield which can buy them a few extra meters in a matter of seconds while archers and builders depend on their environment to escape.

    For instance, an archer could grapple to a floating island to escape but if there aren't any he is doomed to die at the knight's blade. Alternatively, if the water is shallow, the archer could grapple the sea floor and pull himself away from the knight but again that is very situational since a deep pool of water makes such a technique impossible or results in the archer drowning.

    Building a wall to hold off the knight is also situational depending on how deep the water is. On some maps with shallow water and small sky islands, a builder could wall off an area in a matter of seconds, thus denying the kill while in other maps where there might be a lack of sky islands or very deep water, it would take a long time to build a wall. Time which a fleeing builder might not have when chased by a knight.
     
  10. Sirpixelot

    Sirpixelot Base Burner
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    776
    What Rae says is quite right. There's no clear need to actually nerf a knights oceanic movements, just cock block em every single time...
    Now.. the only issue I do have is the knight's shield surf that stuns players... dafaq's up with that.. seriously xD
    And another thing, knights are the main force of any team. Builders are also the main force and are most likely on the front lines with other knights. And archers are the support who hangs back to bring in suppressing fire upon the enemy... if you remove something from one class, the balance sorta crumbles. So all you guys gotta do is get more defence on ya... or better players on your team...

    Oh, and fyi. This is a game, realism is a thing of the past. I doubt the devs wanna change how knights preform again cause if they do.. it might bring up more complaints about another "OP" issue.. or the bugs that might sprout up.. which is a pretty high chance. :I
     
  11. Raelian

    Raelian Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    232
    Actually... reason for my post was to point out how limited the archer and builder are in the water and how fast the knight is. I guess I might not have been clear with my post but I will clarify that now. With that said, I actually support nerfing them and removing the slash speed boost when in the water. The surfing I agree with since it takes a bit more skill and gives a one time boost the moment you enter the water.

    Also my reason isn't based on realism but the idea that the knight has a clear advantage in the water no matter what while the archer and builder rely heavily on the map to escape and if you're in a map with no sky islands and with deep water the archer and builder are pretty much screwed.

    EDITED: Also wanted to add... that's the problem, you can't cock block them every time while being chased because it depends on the map and that's the issue I was trying to point out in my previous post.
     
  12. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

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    1,916
    Please remember that removing the slash boost would make knight combat terrible in water. (Even worse than it already is.) It's not solely about archers/builders.
     
  13. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    I feel like no class should be able to attack while holding a flag. Then you have lone solo badass getting into the base, murdering everyone while holding the flag, and waltzing out. O course, teamwork in KAG almost never works, so maybe ignore me about this.
     
  14. lol yeah, make taking out flag not depressingly hard but impossible. longer games=more fun


    #gamedesign
     
  15. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    It really depends on the map. That being said, teamwork never works in kag and without that lone knight or knight+builder combo you never get the flag anyway, so a lone guy NEEDS to be able to get the flag.
     
  16. LostPix

    LostPix Base Burner

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    574
    Then I drop the flag and murder some scrubs, pick flag again and swag walk away.
     
  17. eamono

    eamono Arsonist

    Messages:
    498
    This is why KAG should have voice chat XD
     
  18. Yagger

    Yagger Kouji's bitch 5eva Staff Alumni Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    646
    >not bomb jumping with the flag to victory
     
    Apronymous and Sirpixelot like this.
  19. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    about water combat, I think it is currently pretty well-balanced, except for boats, but I'll leave that issue aside for now.
    Knights can slash to gain momentum in water: it's a fact, and it doesn't make them OP.
    Builders: they rely on knight back-up to take ground, so if you go out without back-up, or your back-up dies, you're kinda dead in the first place. If your back-up doesn't defend you, shame on them.
    Archers: if you charge a shot and release it before when the knight is close enough for you to knock them back when they're charging a slash, do it, they'll be knocked back and you can swim away to dry land. If there's a horde of knights after you... GG. all i have to say for you guys that try to be a one man army is swim like hell.
     
  20. Raelian

    Raelian Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    232
    Regarding the water combat becoming more terrible if slash boost is removed.

    I can understand water/underwater knight combat being different due to having to change your timing and all but saying it's terrible feels like a bit of an exaggeration. I've fought as a knight while underwater and I admit that it's different but I can't say that it's as terrible as you claim.

    Don't forget that archer combat also suffers underwater. Plus, isn't that how it's supposed to be? A bit more difficult? Compared to the other classes the knight still has a big advantage while in the water.

    Small problem with that tactic; although it sounds good on paper, in reality it doesn't work all that well mostly since charging an arrow takes way longer then charging a slash so by the time the archer charged one arrow (not even bothering with triple shot) the knight can slash towards him almost two times and gaining a lot of ground. Plus let's not forget that annoying ability knights have which allows them to slash arrows mid flight so even if you manage to let off one arrow, the knight has a good chance of slashing it or could simply shield and submerge a bit to get out of the way given how water slows down arrows and reduces their distance.

    You do realize this is the point of the post right? To actually give archers and builders the chance to run like hell and not engage the knight in a suicidal fight? This isn't just about charging like a moron and realizing later that you made a mistake when you encounter a knight in the water, it's also about being able to retreat when your group of friendly knights got massacred by the enemies and the only sensible solution is a tactical retreat.