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General Knight Changes

Discussion in 'Balance' started by Auburn, Sep 13, 2013.

  1. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    Edit a post from september? The moderators may as well just remove the thread as I actually no longer stand by anything I said in the original post. Also, someone necro'd the thread, it was long dead. People should be able to realize that the OP is out of date
     
    Guitarman likes this.
  2. steve_jobs

    steve_jobs Bison Rider

    Messages:
    134
    It seems I have not phrased that very well.
    Don't use real world logic as a reason for changing game elements in a way that would affect balance.
    understand now?


    ~~~~~~(X)~~~~~~
    Anyway, knight nerfs.
    Knights should only be able to get up 6-7 blocks
    unassisted. Not 9-10.
    bombjumping height and ease of use nerfed.

    ^This is so front line buildings can
    actually stop knights for more than two seconds.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2013
  3. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    It's called a roof, or build higher.
     
    Sirpixelot likes this.
  4. Sirpixelot

    Sirpixelot Base Burner
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    776
    You guys need to seriously stop suggesting Bomb jumping nerfs... Get better builders or become on yourself and make either the walls higher or smack a roof ontop... preferable a roof with stone doors so you can dispatch the knight before he has a chance to drop two bombs and break a hole in it... it's getting pretty effing old when someone suddenly says "KNIGHT OP! PLS NERF" Just stop your bitching and play better.. sheesh.... :I
     
  5. steve_jobs

    steve_jobs Bison Rider

    Messages:
    134
    build higher.
    higher than 45 blocks, you mean? (yes, I can double bomb jump this high)
    you shouldn't have to build that high to stop bomb jumping knights. Bomb jumping completely disregards the builders main use:
    building.

    As for roofs, they are as almost as expensive as making an entire new tower, and they take a lot of time to build.


     
  6. Sirpixelot

    Sirpixelot Base Burner
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    776
    Not everyone know's how to bomb jump. Only a certain number of people do.... :o
    It takes some practice but it's not known to everyone.
     
  7. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

    Messages:
    3,620
    How balance should work in Beta:

    1)A user finds something they thnik needs fixing
    2)They test changes and document it (perhaps making a thread noting that a server X that they have up can be tested, or files Y can be downloaded to test changes yourself).
    3)If it has enough traction and has actually been tested, make a thread with said information.
    4)Based on information the devs can now make a conscious decision to mainstream the 'balance change' or not, if not you can simply enjoy servers that have it, if it was worthwhile good servers will most likely adopt it.

    Tadah.

    When I bitched about changes not being able to be made a year ago it was because I literally could not without decompiling and recompiling the code (which one guy who DID was told to cease and desist by the devs BTW for a simple sound edit). You guys have all the possibilities now actually available to you to make the changes most of these threads ask for (water ammo, nerf knights, change x, do y), so go try it yourself or I'm sure that you guys are connected enough to have someone else do it that isn't a dev and still follow through those steps very easily with the help of that other person.

    P.S. As allknowingfrog said above, I fucking hate the current state of knight combat, I find that a lot of the previous rock paper scissors is simply gone, a lot of things that I argued were total shit, and many people agreed with that were in classic are now in beta and are also total shit. However if I ever give enough of a fuck again to actually host a server and wade through the files to do that specifically, then maybe I'll change something, but before I do so I'll also make sure to master the current combat or at least understand every detail of it before I change it, something I've been attempting to do recently, as I have spare time and will be getting a second monitor so I can play/code/test during work, and while I'm half way through 2 different CS courses, Id like to actually apply them to something, preferably that I and others could enjoy on the shorter term.

    Actually no it wasn't, it meant that for the most part you had to actually create your own space, as it is now it 'seems' (again I don't have enough weight under my belt in BETA specifically to debate this) that if I jab spam someone unless they are severely hurt (under 2 hearts maybe 1.5) in the time it takes them to slash my jabs will not kill them. It also seems that since you can trigger (I'm close to doing this consistently) the slash way before the sound queue or graphical queue fully enstates, that you can slash almost (Very nearly if not )as fast as you can jab.

    I really need to get into a sandbox and play around with henrys or a few other people 1v1 or something for like a good 50 hours, as it is all I've done is pickup games of TTH/CTF.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
  8. Sirpixelot

    Sirpixelot Base Burner
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    776
    All the agrees. All of them. And yea, you should just.. try to learn the combat.
    But if you dont wanna, I know some stuff about combat. The most obvious rule, spam jab like no tomorrow... even in the air.. which is quite silly looking xD
    Another rule of combat, always come flying at the enemy as fast as humanly possible, apparently your speed = murder. Plus height also works too, mostly cuz your stomping your enemy when you smack. But from what I can tell, lag aids you.. cause when you attack, that hit box of the attack is still present when you backoff, so your enemy will land on the block before it despawns a second later. The speed part is still a bit confusing.. but it seems that slower you are the quicker you'll die. But the faster you're moving and how much your managing to stay in the air... you can kill more.. untill your groove is broken...

    That to me is how it works... :I
     
  9. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

    Messages:
    2,196
    I think the just the opposite BlueLuigi. I'm finding that for the very first time KAG is forcing me to choose between options based on what I think the other person will do, the rock paper scissors as you said. I basically never felt that way in classic. True, Beta jabs are rarely a good option against an opponent full health, but that's better than classic where they were always a good option- sometimes to the point beating both slash and shield. In classic jabs often randomly beat slash and shield isn't even a good answer as unless both players have a perfect connection you can't reliably counter jab.

    I'm finding that with the superior hit detection and the new momentum system there's a lot of depth gained. Not only is spacing more important but being creative when approaching your enemies is not only necessary but has expanded possibilities with new movement options and the refinement of old ones.

    I think the difference is really clear when you look at the spread of KDs in classic compared to beta, even pre-steam beta. I can name dozens of beta knights who get consistently get over 3KD- the only person I recall who could do that in the most recent incarnation of classic is Vidar who cheated and avoided the shitty knight combat by simply spamming bombs.

    The transition to beta is very difficult as your classic reflexes will fight you all the way. I too hated beta at first and refused to play it, but after a break that allowed my old skills to wane a bit I took to beta and never turned back.
     
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  10. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

    Messages:
    3,620
    Well I've had more of a break than any of you probably, since I wasn't playing KAG for months. As for classic combat I can definitely speak there, shielding never failed me, jab spam? Shield bash, back up and slash (then again double slash was something completely different there). I also never had much lag with shields/jabs though but I always played within my region if I could help it, the few times I played Australian or EU servers it was usually terrible so I stopped and never looked back. My main problem with the combat here is the shield delay, and not being able to do as much instantly, throw a bomb at the last second while slashing, or at the very last second shield the bomb, there's a slight delay you have to compensate for, and so far everyone I've spoken with on mumble said it was intentional, it's hard for me to note the difference without actually testing it outside of a game between when I'm really shielding (server side/ingame) and when I am on my screen.

    I definitely see the KD you're talking about too, but KD to me was never a measure of actual skill, and honestly in a game like this, never deserves to be, in classic you didn't need a good KD to be worthwhile, and in fact that's why people really didn't care about it (except a few chuckle fucks), would you rather have a 1:1 KD and win the game due to superior moves and actually taking shit down, or have a 3:1 and make the game last 2 hours cause you're not taking down any towers, just killing the plebs spilling out?

    That said,it seems that already if 'm playing without anyone that I know is good pop on (or at least significantly better than me anyway), I can consistently get a 2:1 KD when I check as well as actually pressure the front easily by swapping to builder and building when I need to if not (attempting) bomb jumping over and breaking shit.. I took more to classic, a lot easier and enjoyed it a lot more, so 'm trying to still give beta some more time though.

    Either way though overall, the main thing I wanted to post here honestly is about the process, I'll come back and post more about my feelings on combat in like a month when I've had enough exposure.
     
  11. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

    Messages:
    2,196
    Of course I'm not saying that KD is everything, but a greater disparity in KDs within the general populace suggests that there are more consistent results in combat, ie. skill matters more. I'm finding that playing with lag is much easier, even in Australia I'm easily able to go toe to toe with Aussie vets, whereas in classic 300+ ping was a death sentence even vs plebs. Anyways good to see you're giving beta fair shot, hope you eventually enjoy it.
     
    Beef likes this.
  12. Beef

    Beef ก็็็็็็็็็็็็็ʕ•͡ᴥ•ʔ ก้้้้้้้้้้้ Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

    Messages:
    1,054
    My main complaint with the combat is the slash range being slightly longer than the sprite shows.

    Playing with debug on gives you a massive advantage, even just to learn the true range of it, something you otherwise have to pile on intuition for.

    I don't know was this intentional on the devs behalf, as a way for long term uberknights to edge out each other; the one with the better knowledge of slash range wins almost every time.
     
    Beelzebub likes this.
  13. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

    Messages:
    3,620
    It would suggest skill matters more IF your only goal is kills per death. The problem with this is a severe lack of telemetry, so it's all most people have to go off of.

    And yeah I've seen 100+ ping is nowhere near as bad as before, in classic approaching 200 ping to the point of 166 was just ridiculous.
     
  14. Crabmaster

    Crabmaster Bison Rider
    1. Zen Laboratories

    Messages:
    322
    I know it just annoys some of you people when someone mentions nerfing bombjumping but really. . .if so many people have issues with it then maybe it does have problems?

    I wonder if when bomb jumping gets to be popular(as it isn't very hard to learn) there will be a community cry out like there was with water ammo(which still could use a tweak). . .

    Also it is hard to complain that people don't know how to counter bombjumpers when if you know how to double bombjump then you most likely will have the skill to get over most towers and have the skill to at least kill 2-3 people in even a bad position, you also will have an opening to break anything on their roof(or inside the base if there is no roof), and you will have the high ground. . .If you have the skill to triple bomb jump(something I just learned how to do) then nothing stands in your way. . .The skill cap negates the existence of the builder class, pretty much.

    If someone would like to explain to me legitimate reasons why bombjumping and its ability to get you over anything is balanced, be my guest, I would actually really like to hear why.

    And admittedly I wouldn't mind a nerf on bombjumping if the builder class could somehow have a buff on their offensive abilities, as the current reason we still see games that come to endless standoffs is because of two reasons:

    Builders currently only exist to make games longer and to build a few shops at the start of the game, their ability to make games longer can be extended almost infinitely at its current state and also is the cause of why games end very abruptly, on top of that it is why the vast majority of the community doesn't see that Builders need a buff and a nerf at the same time.

    The second reason, and the one that needs changed the most, is that even though there are MANY ways to assault a fort the Builder's ways are the least effective! Drills? Knights use them better! Siege weapons? Knights can buy them as easily and can actually defend them! Getting over a tower? Knights and archers don't need help! Getting through a tower? Bomb arrows, Kegs, Knights with Drills, Mines, and siege being run by Knights. . .The best thing the Builder can do is tunnel and people HATE tunneling. Builders just don't survive on the battlefield like they did in Classic, and without them there we keep the "Classic forts" which are too strong to be beaten, but lose the "Classic builder assault" which could beat those forts! This is also why you hardly see important forts being made on the battlefield mid-game, you can't build an effective fort within a few seconds. . .and even if you do a keg will remove it right away.

    Long post is long...
     
  15. because if im good enough to outplay entire opposite team i should be able to do it and not stare at them and let them play minecraft?
    if im not good enough they will kill me as a i try to bombjump

    here, have your explanation
     
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  16. steve_jobs

    steve_jobs Bison Rider

    Messages:
    134
    crabmaster, I agree fully.
    when I play ctf, I hardly ever touch the front of a tower. I just bomb jump over it, and either:
    - take it down from the back with a mine.
    - or blow through the flag case, grab the flag and ignore the tower completely.

    Bombs and mines are the best stratagy on ctf.

    so @Ej, you are saying this:
    If I can take out their entire team in open combat,
    then I should have the means to fight them in open combat,
    regardless of the buildings put there to stop me.

    what? That is extremely arrogant. By your logic, building should just be removed from kag, as your skill in combat is the only thing that matters. People like you should stay in tdm.

    imo, kag should be about teamwork. Not owning entire teams by yourself.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
    Crabmaster likes this.
  17. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    You fucking retards. See here how OP bombjumping is:


    Constantly stopped and no big damage done.
    E: Seems to start at 1:22 for some reason, go to the beginning to the 1st match.
     
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  18. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

    Messages:
    3,620
    1)It only gets a single person over
    2)That person is limited to what he can do when over (that limit being his combat ability and bombs left over)

    The main thing is, you are still leaving your builders, your bombless, and anyone without the skill to bombjump behind. This was also the same thing in classic the entire time, and it was fun whether you were a builder or a knight, you could argue that it's worse now I guess, but whatever.

    Honestly the real question I never see these people ask is, what the hell do they think those who are skilled enough to do so are going to do? Sit around and not get past their buildings? Hell no, one of them will go builder and they'll defend that mofo to get past your buildings just as well, oh wait that's exactly what happened every time bomb jumping was fucked, people worked around it by working with builders. The only thing that really changes, that would completely fuck the current pub games is that those builders in the back will be even more worthless to your team when they are doing nothing, because you'll now have 1 builder in the front with the knights instead of 1 more knight, meaning more noncombat units. I'm speaking of course from what I can in a pub environment. Trying to balance a game like this around any sort of 'pro scene' would be a fucking joke.

    One thing I do see that could be a problem with current bomb jumping, is getting shot while bomb jumping seems to propel you further. It should drop your ass like a sack of bricks, not directly down, but significantly lessen your momentum.
     
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  19. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    I think a solid snipe should immediately send a bomb jumper falling. There are plenty of times when the enemy doesn't have an archer on top anyway so it would make archers more useful since hitting a bomb jumping knight in mid-flight (And dealing damage, mind you, not hitting the shield) would send him falling. Anything that encourages precision shooting is good in my book.
     
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  20. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    I know you can already do this with water ammo, Actually, I saw @Nighthawk take down JoshTG (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) and it was pretty epic as his stunned body fell to the earth and then burst into giblets, but maybe if a knight takes 2 hearts of damage while gliding he should flinch? Also, if there is an archer at the top of a tower, you can't get over that tower if an archer times his shot right. The only way is to bomb jump high enough and far enough to evade the stun range of the archer completely, which raises the skill ceiling even higher.
     
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