Good players are usually snobs. – How to fix!

I didn't really get your point.

Why makes you think so? If the example is analogous, I don't see the reason for which it doesn't apply to our case. You said it was an hyperbole, then why are you surprised at the comparation of an everyday example with an exaggerated one?

That logical fallacy applies when the desirability of a consequence subjectively influences the conclusion. We are discussing whether or not an action can be morally considered good or bad. Do you mean that linking an action (e.g hitting someone) with its consequences (pain, negative effect) to conclude something (hitting other people is morally bad) is incorrect? I believe either you misunderstood the fallacy or I misunderstood your argument.

My reasoning is, as you said:
If A, X occurs
X is a bad consequence
Therefore, A is bad.

The quoted fallacy aims to:
If A, X occurs
X is a bad consequence
Therefore, A is false or less probable
-or-
If A, X occurs
X is a good consequence
Therefore, A is true or more probable

Wikipedia has many examples of this, all of which are very different to our case.

 

Some of what you say makes sense to me. However, there's a problem with what you're proposing.

You see, if getting raged at DOES cause people to become griefers, it doesn't happen all the time. You can't say that everyone who gets yelled at for being a durr becomes a griefer, because not everyone does.

Second, there's an almost unlimited supply of new players. If KAG continues to grow, we're going to be dealing with more newbies every day.

So we either help the new guys along, while getting our asses kicked in a COMPETITIVE game, or we tell them to go be noobish somewhere else. If they become a griefer, we deal with said griefer via kick, and he/she most likely gets fed up and doesn't play again. If said griefer does play again, and griefs again, there's a good probability of them getting perma-banned, in which case we NEVER see them again.

Also, might I mention that most bad players are people who are young and naive and unable to comprehend any tips they are given? So who cares if there's a griefer occasionally? As they say, griefers gonna grief. If you can't deal with being treated as a noob WHEN you ARE a noob, you're just not tolerant enough.

Sorry, I might sound a little cold here, but that's just how it is. And frankly, having to deal with a new fool every day doesn't make me pop out of bed in the morning.

Short Version of What I'm Trying to Say:
Griefers are annoying, but so are noobs. We deal with one, or the other. I prefer griefers, because it's easier to remove a griefer than it is to teach a noob.
That probably sounds harsh. It probably is. Sorry. It's just my opinion.

 

You are the reason I drink.

 

I apologize for that. I was not aware that you have known me for so long that I have driven you to drink.

If it helps, consider the fact that I was raised in this, um... "good-player=snob" community. Perhaps it toughened me up. Perhaps it made me cold and heartless. I don't know, and it's probably going to be really difficult to change what I think to something... "better?"

Anyway, best wishes with the drinking problem. I recommend you ignore my posts if you see my avatar again. Good day.

 

Well I try to teach people but it takes so long but it usually turns out fine in any class not just builder. Also there needs to be a tutorial in game which shows them what's nooby and what's good (maybe a slideshow) In this presentation it will show avocado traps, team door spamming and at the bottom of each slide there will be a yes and no box (good or bad) and at the end would be an explanation of why it is good and why it might be bad and where it should be built etc. This would give them a brief idea of a how-to to build, what not to build and give them something useful to do during the building phase.

 

It was more a joke than anything, I assure you- it was more of a cry of despair over a stance that many people seem to have. The problem with any of this is that simply throwing new players to the wolves leads to a less sustainable community and in turn, less people to ultimately play with. Choosing griefers rather than newbies is what ends up getting games soundly housed in obscurity land. I'd rather this game not end up with 5-7 servers full of people who won't take five minutes to help a new player (E.G.: "Don't build like that, here's why"), but will take five minutes to chew them out when they build doors at the bottom of a structure, or think pitting during build phase is a good idea.

It seems almost brainless to insulate a community from new people and new ideas, especially when a community is as small as KAG's is currently. When the game matures significantly and there is a sustained competitive environment? Sure, I can see people (Especially on servers known for competitive matches) getting pissy. But for now? I'd offer it's a terrible strategy to prolong or improve a game you enjoy.

Then again, I know nothing.

 

I still think there are alot more players that are willing to listen and learn then people give them credit for, pretty much every other game recently I've managed to give someone that could easily be perceived as a griever or general idiot some basic advice and they've listened. I don't think alot of experienced players seem to appreciate how the game's has alot of subtleties that don't exactly become apparent unless your told or from experience, and when you add in a growing community within many are new or contented in ignorance there often isn't much good experience to take from other people's actions anyway if you are a new player. Another big problem is language barrier, many players don't speak English so simply aren't gonna understand if you bollock them or try to help them either way.

I thought this game was a really basic straightforward arcade fuck about in my first couple of games, and was astounded by how seriously some people were taking it, after a week or so getting hooked I started to appreciate all of the intricacies I could see why some people got passionate about it, and after a couple of weeks caught myself getting a bit irritated now and again. All in all for me, while the game itself isn't casual if you wanna be any good, the way you can hop in and out of games is, so I don't really get raging about it, if I was playing a proper match I might take it slightly seriously, but then I'd be playing in an organised team that'd be fairly unlikely to make a base solely comprised of bridges and team doors.

@ Vivicus, I think you've got it spot on there, alot of servers are beyond being full of idiots and new players picking up bad habits, but alot of servers go one step beyond not having admins on often and stupid shit happening all the time and fully embrace grieving. I think it'd be nice if servers that want a high standard of game made a big deal about it in their description, and made it clear how grieving won't be tolerated. One thing that definitely does irritate me about this game is joinng a server and not knowing when your gonna enter a massive shitstorm of team destruction or not have people around to deal with people that will come on a server and ruin a decent game. If these are the kinda places that are becoming common then people that start playing KAG are gonna either not learn how to play or aren't gonna bother after a few games anyway because of all the fucktards.

 

So, if a new player wants to learn they should go to the forums?

Hell, when I bought the game I wanted to have fun, not read thread after thread of outdated archaic information.
So of course I fucked up, mainly due to the exclusion of any proper tutorial, and it took me a long while to get better, mainly because most people wouldnt help me to become better (even when I asked them myself).
So the only way to truly help the new guys, Stop raging at them you're only making it worse, I dont care about your sense of justification on having to deal with too many of them.

If you dont help the new guys, you're nothing but an elitist snob.

 

Of course, there will always be those who are unwilling to learn, but there is nothing you can do about those other than to label with with the trolls and initiate a kick, other than that you simply have to keep trying to teach people who may be new.

 

Why should we have to spend our game teaching people? That's got nothing to do with playing the game. It's not fun tolerating retards and letting them walk all over you while you explain politely that they're doing wrong. Don't get me wrong though if I see someone who is willing to learn and is friendly I will try and help as much as I can. You can make friends that way and it's always better to have someone more informed on your team.

We're not elitist, we just want to play the damn game.

 

I'm one of those guys that can be rude or vicious to noobs that aren't helping. I think it's just because I care so much and want the best team possible. It's probably not the best tact, but it can sometimes snap people out of their haze and get them to respond better. I know when I first started, I would get snapped at for doing things wrong and I quickly fell into line.

I guess it's like hazing. You have it done to you, then you pass it on down the road.

As far as greifers, I feel the best method is to stop competing in the game and do your best to foil them. Patch all their destruction, or constantly limit their movement (by blocking them in confined spaces). Then while you are doing that, coach the other players into initiating a kick. It almost becomes a game unto itself.

 

It's really disheartening when someone doesn't speak English.

One guy said I was a bad builder because I made a tall spawn building with a roof. I think his complaint was that I didn't give it a second door higher up? I don't know. It was too passive-aggressive (if I'm allowed to be picky). Build time is confusing (and short) enough that I tend to look for an empty space and improve it as much as I can.

 

Good players are like the stars, they are above you. Also bigger. Better. And they're also dicks.

 

I learned most about the game naturally, just by starting playing. I still learn a ton about stuff I didn't realize could be done with building and stuff.

My problem with new players is:
1. They don't accept advice
2. They don't accept advice
3. They don't accept advice
4. Some of them are too young to understand and/or English isn't their first language.
5. But most important of all: They don't accept advice.

 

With that logic I must have started life as a seasoned and skilled veteran of King Arthur's Gold because I took plenty of advice...

 

Like Athena, AnRK, you sprang fully-formed from the skull of your progenitor, ready and raring to bomb people into the ground.