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Highlight useful items for your class (on [C])

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Ideas' started by Diprog, Oct 28, 2017.

?

Do you want to see this feature in game?

  1. Yes

    18 vote(s)
    48.6%
  2. Yes, but needs some changes

    9 vote(s)
    24.3%
  3. No

    10 vote(s)
    27.0%
Mods: Rainbows
  1. Diprog

    Diprog Bison Rider Tester
    1. FUN Servers

    Messages:
    149
    So, I often see how people don't notice useful materials/ammo for their classes. And it usually happens on the battle field: a lot of corpses, hearts, ammo don't allow you to see useful items for your class (fire arrows, bombs, bomb arrows, gold etc.).
    Maybe it's a stupid idea, but here is a "prototype":
    screen-17-10-28-23-25-27.png
    Edit: Ok, now it looks more balanced and more beautiful (like pickup). Screenshot in spoiler.
    screen-17-10-29-01-39-05.png
    Items won't be highlighted, if lighting level (luminance) is less than 30 (255 max).
    What is highlighted:
    • Wood, stone and gold for a builder.
    • Fire arrows, water arrows and bomb arrows for an archer.
    • Bombs and water bombs for a knight.
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 29, 2017, Original Post Date: Oct 28, 2017 ---

    Ok, the final version is here:
    highlighting.gif
    highlighting.gif
    GitHub: https://github.com/transhumandesign/kag-base/pull/45
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2017
    bru-jaz, Clev, TFlippy and 9 others like this.
  2. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler

    Messages:
    296
    This idea is flawed in multiple ways:
    • Performance: Your implementation is horrendous performance-wise.
    • It'll make nearby blobs (out of range and blocked) seem as if they're inside the pickup range.
      shit.gif
      shit2.gif
    That said, I personally dislike it because:
    • I like the aspect of spotting useful blobs (without this kind of help).
    • It clutters the screen with flashing blobs - especially when there's a lot of blobs.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2017
  3. Diprog

    Diprog Bison Rider Tester
    1. FUN Servers

    Messages:
    149
    Thank you for your report. Now hightlighted items have an outline only when they are in pickup range. Made fading less annoying too.
     
  4. Asu

    Asu THD Team THD Team Forum Moderator

    Messages:
    1,578
    Post from geti on github:
    Here's a summary of things that the idea implies so far:
    • The highlight appears only when [C] is pressed.
    • The highlight appears only if the area is bright enough. If you can't see an item, you won't see its highlight, so you cannot see items hidden in tunnels.
    • The highlight brightness depends on the area brightness.
    • Materials are highlighted if you are a builder, special arrows are highlighted if you are an archer, bombs are highlighted if you are a knight (kegs probably should though?)
    • Highlighted items have an outline only when these are in range, but the highlight brightness does not vary.
    • The highlighted items show on top of other things, including other materials, grass, trees, and players.
    What can be implemented:
    • Fade out the effect depending on the distance.
    • A switch to disable the effect (which would require to be done engine-side).
    • Make the highlight effect more subtle for out of range items (which I did suggest, but Diprog says he would rather test the highlight in its current state and then tune it).
    Performance is hardly a concern. It runs only when pressing [C], and only looks for blobs in the view (which is not yet pushed on github). It's not like it's iterating over a couple thousand times. Feel free to profile it though.
     
  5. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler

    Messages:
    296
    Tested it on sandbox with around 10 - 20 blobs.
    It came in last after a few pick-ups.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
  6. 8x

    8x Elimination Et Choix Traduisant la Realité Forum Moderator Tester Official Server Admin
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    1,314
    In relation to picking items up, I always thought of a client-side customizable pickup priority list, like a .cfg, being able to leave items non auto-pickable too.
     
    Blue_Tiger, Kububv and bru-jaz like this.
  7. Asu

    Asu THD Team THD Team Forum Moderator

    Messages:
    1,578
    Optimized down by a lot, ~1 minute test with a crapton of gold dropped:
    Code:
    [12:13:16] [0.083s total, 0.00005s avg]  1815 calls - void onTick(CSprite@ sprite):highlightitems.as
    [12:13:16] [0.085s total, 0.00005s avg]  1815 calls - void onRender(CMap@ this):sandbox.as
    [12:13:16] [0.098s total, 0.00005s avg]  1815 calls - void onTick(CSprite@ this):builderanim.as
    [12:13:16] [0.105s total, 0.00006s avg]  1815 calls - void onTick(CMovement@ this):runnermovement.as
    [12:13:16] [0.138s total, 0.00008s avg]  1815 calls - void onTick(CSprite@ this):runnerhead.as
    [12:13:16] [0.196s total, 0.00011s avg]  1815 calls - void onRender(CRules@ this):markplayers.as
    [12:13:16] [0.348s total, 0.00019s avg]  1815 calls - void onTick(CBlob@ this):drawhovermessages.as
    [12:13:16] [0.942s total, 0.00052s avg]  1815 calls - void onRender(CSprite@ this):builderhud.as
    [12:13:16] [1.067s total, 0.00059s avg]  1815 calls - void onRender(CSprite@ this):defaultactorhud.as
    [12:13:16] [2.662s total, 0.00147s avg]  1815 calls - void onRender(CSprite@ sprite):highlightitems.as
    [12:13:16] [3.519s total, 0.00194s avg]  1815 calls - void onRender(CSprite@ this):standardpickup.as
    [12:13:16] [6.330s total, 0.00349s avg]  1815 calls - void onTick(CRules@ this):mechanismsserver.as
    [12:13:16] [20.245s total, 0.01115s avg]  1815 calls - void onTick(CBlob@ this):standardpickup.as
    
     
  8. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    Since the discussion seems to be here I'll chime in
    • I like the idea of this kind of assistance; it can help new, less able players get an eye for things and be more useful team-mates, and helps the game better communicate what is already there on the screen.
    • I feel that arguments based on this being a learned skill are fundamentally elitist and not really in the interests of the game. That said for people who want the raw challenge of hunting for mats amongst gibs and bodies, I'm sure we could work out some way to turn it off clientside and serverside.
    • I'm not sure about having it on the pickup button, especially for all taps, but I'm aware that making it only appear after holding would make it less situationally useful.
    • Performance is a concern for me as anything iterating large numbers of blobs and doing distance calculations script-side isn't going to be screaming along, but I doubt that this is impossible to optimise to a satisfactory level.
    • All that said, I'm not going to bring this in until there's some sort of consensus, and I'd love to hear more player's thoughts on this.
     
  9. FoxyLady

    FoxyLady Bison Rider Staff Alumni

    Messages:
    190
    If this becomes a thing, at least give us the option to turn it on/off in options settings. I personally don't like it but i can understand how it can help newer people who play the game.
     
    franek123, Clev, Kububv and 2 others like this.
  10. JaytleBee

    JaytleBee Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. [Server] Sandbox Reborn

    Messages:
    117
    Pretty much totally agree with the getster on this one. Could be a wonderful accessibility feature if done right. Recognising the items on the screen is not a main focus of the gameplay either, so I wouldn't say it detracts from that. That said, the option should definitively be toggle-able as it will probably annoy newer players. I trust Asu with performance, he knows his shit
     
  11. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler

    Messages:
    296
    You say it'll be of assistance - especially to less able players. I doubt this. I foresee it'll become another "random" feature that nobody (unless those who implemented it) notices or takes active use of - much like the "marking" system. It's not like these materials lie around everywhere. To expect less able players to take active use of this system is unrealistic.

    Keeping it minimalistic and simple will benefit newcomers much more.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
    FuzzyBlueBaron and norill like this.
  12. i suspect this will benefit pros more than newbies. newbies might not know about it. basically this would be a nice trick that, when you learn it, makes your life easier. so it widens the gap between total nub and uber pro. but i also think it will help "middle tier" players more than pros, that are already on a constant lookout for useful items
     
  13. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler

    Messages:
    296
    It's redundant in that way. Anyone who's on "constant lookout" would spot them either way.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
  14. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    2,508
    Seems like it could be helpful. ::):

    Issues of performance and exact look aside (bc the people implementing it are, I feel, sensible and sensitive enough to not screw up :wink:) I'd say that Fuzzle & norill raise an important point re: it being a "hidden" feature that players (especially the players it's supposed to help!) fail to realise is there.

    With the above in mind, I guess my only point would be to ensure that there are ways (ideally 3, but if that's too much then at least 1 primary + 1 backup way) for players to learn of the feature / be encouraged to become savvy users of the resources lying around.

    Suggestions from the fbb include:
    • a help-tip (of the kind you turn off with f1);
    • a protip (of the sort you read while waiting to respawn);
    • an extra line under "C" (in the quick manual that comes up when you hit ESC)
    • an option in settings to turn it off (this means it defaults to "on" for newbies, plus even seeing it in settings can help telegraph that the mechanic exists).
    Hopefully some of those are not terrible. :heart:
     
  15. Element_Paladin

    Element_Paladin Horde Gibber Tester
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    64
    do it before para becomes a better waifu than foxy again
     
    FoxyLady likes this.
  16. SlashDemon

    SlashDemon Shipwright

    Messages:
    5
    Yeah seems like a neat idea, I always notice unused bomb arrows just lying around, but what FoxyLady said. Make it an option if it is implemented.
     
    FoxyLady likes this.
  17. I feel like this would be a good "quality-of-life" sorta thing. Here are my thoughts on it from a balance perspective.

    • QOL: This can only help players; while having corpses and certain other things obscure materials is pretty cool, and makes hunting for materials on a battlefield fraught and challenging, in practice it usually results in a builder dying, dropping their goods, and not being used for the rest of the match. While wood and stone are easy to come by, if gold is dropped in this fashion, it can be quite devastating to offense on some maps. Other classes are less hurt by the loss of their respective materials, as they're either not as critical to the class or are large enough to not be obscured.
    • Skill-crutch: It is unlikely that this would act as a skill-crutch for players. I do not see experienced players losing ability because of this; nor do I see new players gaining artificial skill out of it.
    • Skill-floor: Having items highlighted by use would slightly lower the skill-floor for all classes, weighted more towards builder. It would not drastically affect overall skill floor.
    • Skill-ceiling: I doubt that this would affect the skill-ceiling much. Perhaps it would lower it slightly, which is what some people above believe; but difficulty/skill indexing borne of obscurity is not fun. Really though, it's a pretty minor change, so I don't feel it'd hurt skill-ceiling.
    • Game progression: Maaaaaaybe it'd speed up the overall match time by a small fraction, given materials would be easier to locate. This would vary with the map, of course. It is rare these days that the centre of the map becomes a no-man's-land anymore.
    So in conclusion, I don't think it would hurt to add this. It's a simple piece of quality of life content. :thumbs_up:
     
    FuzzyBlueBaron and Geti like this.
  18. ValiantVoyager

    ValiantVoyager Drill Rusher

    Messages:
    43
    Honestly, I think this would be a great idea for the sake of new players. I persuaded a couple of my friends to buy KAG a long time ago and they didn't really get into it, and I truly think that reason was because they never quite got past the learning curve. Obviously this isn't the case for every new player, but I think everything would be a little less daunting and chaotic for a newbie if class-specific items are highlighted. Anything to help them ease into understanding how the game works. (but yeah I definitely support the idea of being able to turn this feature off for experienced players)

    And one other thing on this topic --- you know how in a lot of video games (Dark Souls, some Zeldas, etc.) when there is a loading screen, an image of an in-game item will be displayed, along with some brief information/stats about it? Could that be something else fairly easy to add in during the screens when you're connecting to a server? This could further help new players. Just a thought.
     
  19. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    Definitely a good point to make. It's important that we communicate this kind of stuff better if/when it's added to avoid it becoming underutilised.

    @ValiantVoyager - about the loading screen tips - it'd be possible but the time spent joining a server is pretty short compared to the time spent playing there. We added the respawn tips as something roughly equivalent a while ago as that's the usual "wait time". It's worth considering though. At the moment it just reminds you to be nice to each other and read books.

    I understand that this is sarcasm, my meaning was that something being a learned skill is not necessarily a good thing (for the game and for the player) (nor is it necessarily a bad thing). Convenience can be a feature, and for something "PvE" (ie no other player is involved) where the alternative is materials getting wasted or missed, or a team-mate being less efficient at gathering them, I don't see a non-elitist argument for learning to "be on the lookout" for materials without this kind of aid. "Git gud" isn't very helpful or motivational for most people.

    Hopefully the difference between learning an already telegraphed (visually and audibly), predictable, timed high-skill movement mechanic and assisting the basics of resource collection is pretty obvious. Hopefully the difference between learning the location of another player actively engaging in subversive, high risk, time consuming behaviour and learning the location of freely collectible inert resources is also obvious.

    Sidenote, I'd be ok with visible enemy health, we had it in classic and it's good for target prioritisation. It'd need better presentation than we had in classic though.



    Sorry for the derail, folks! Thanks for discussing this, keep it coming.
     
  20. bru-jaz

    bru-jaz Bison Rider

    Messages:
    264
    What is that?
     
    franek123 likes this.
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