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Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Ej, Mar 22, 2014.
KAG is fine the way it is... Should simply stay like that.
Responses are in the spoiler/quote, just as before, to save space.
Water ammo is fine, and you cannot compare it to a knight's bombs because they are capable of completely different things. You can bite right into an apple without a problem, but oranges have to be peeled first.
The only thing water ammo accomplishes is holding a player down for a couple seconds. In order to actually kill that person, you need another source of damage, and that other source of damage is what gets the kill; water ammo is passive support and doesn't even reward the archer with a better K/D. Holding a player down has 2 uses, and that is stalling out timed effects, or putting a temporary stop to aggression whether it be towards you or your teammates(and the secret third effect, which is making camping archers fall to their deaths ). I don't see what's so out of line about that, especially since like someone said earlier: in order to actually use them it has to be a direct hit.
Unlike water ammo, knight's bombs can outright kill mobs of players, destroy any structure, or allow knights to fly over any obstacle that gets in their way. Bombs are not situational, or niche, or require a different playstyle to use effectively. Bombs can do pretty much anything you need as knight, and because of that they are staple. They simply get shit done.
you misunderstood. Im simply talking about how knights every life buy a full set of bombs if they can typically and that would/should be the same for archers buying water arrows. obviously they have different effects but you make it seem like water arrows are just a nuisance. a good archer can halt all bomb jumping entirely and prevent slashing when friendly knights are nearby. why would you water arrow without team support there to benefit anyway? thats the whole purpose.
Water arrows are pretty cheap 30 for 2 which is 15 for 1... Which is less then a half of the cost for one bomb arrow... No idea the costs for knights but I find bomb arrows a tad expensive compared to the water arrows
It's not whether they're expensive compared to something else that matters, it's if their cost is balanced with the utility you get from using one. And bomb arrows are pretty damn effective in the hands of a reasonably skilled archer.
How about the grapple initially pulls the archer all the way to its target, then loosens over time to some longer length? I see grapple as a transient maneuver, and really agree that using it to dangle or camp should be punished.
(oh boy, time dive headlong into a deep and complex discussion, gonna get raped)
Shields need to be nerfed, their blocking hitbox is way to big. Second, although i like your ideas EJ, i gotta say, camping is kinda part of archers play style, there more of a defensive class to begin with, and while the grapple did fix this simply having a good archer on your team like me kerdam will get rid of these archers easily, I do like how ever some of your other suggestions about the grapple, i gotta say personally i don't think it needs a buff, considering i get to the enemy's back base so much i run out of things to do so i just run around yelling that im spooky until they kill me, that's probably just because all i do is fuck around with the grapple, but for people who actually play as archer instead of wasting time most of these suggestions would really help push archer to a more offensive play style.
Anyways, i hope that made sense.
I honestly don't have any problems with shields but camping archers is one thing that constantly gets on my nerves. I enjoyed the tree climbing feature from classic considerably more than I do the grapple. And I mean actually being able to stay in the tree, not just climb up and instantly fall out like in beta. Doing that in classic was basically like camo, but if someone saw you, you were basically dead because all they would have to do is hit the tree and you would fall to your death...
There was a lot more trees on classic maps to hide and climb as an archer, but now in Beta we don't see that many trees on the battle ground as they're mostly on the far sides of the each map, and even if there is trees between the two sides, most good builders take the saplings if they were going to start a tree farm.
The grapple edition is essential for archer survival, and with the grapple you can cling onto the trees, making you not fall down unless you let go of right click.
If people learned the classes they play and what abilities they can do to encounter these 'problems' there wouldn't be so many people asking for the game to be changed. Although saying this you cant really prevent an archer firing a water ammo from stunning you.
How about move?
The only real knight shield issues I see is the fact that they seem to block arrows at whatever angle they feel like. As it was said they block arrows at a 180degree angle. <- THAT'S CRAZY and makes no sense. Everything else with the shield is FINE. You have the high ground in a knight duel -> you win, this is not a new concept. Coming in from above you have all sorts of advantages.
As for archers... You are complaining about camping? I mean hell just put up a shield and you are fine! They are a support / suppression class for a reason, let them do their thing. I honestly can only hang from walls briefly because anyone in their right mind knows that an archer hanging like that is waiting to be shot or get a bomb sent his way. I can only imagine the frustration if you could only hang for 5 seconds. I mean you could just re-grapple and get the same effect, it'd just be more tedious.
The archers have a big bag of tricks just like the knights do, and they need those tricks to survive.
I don't know about you but I've yet to master bomb jumping with 2 bombs while moving.
So you are implying double bomjumping should have no counters? It's already kinda OP. Plus if you have your shield up they have to direct hit you.
No, I'm just using it as an example of how you cant prevent water arrows from hitting you all the time, when standing still.
Unless you are playing TTH, water arrows aren't really a problem. They are annoying yes, but there's a reason that you don't see anybody using them in CTF. The only time I ever buy water arrows is if our builders feel like making our base entirely of wood and the enemies archers are smart enough to spam fire arrows. Otherwise, bomb arrows cost money.
The OP contains so much yes that it makes me slightly want to come back to KAG... slightly
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